Both ChinaGeeks and Fool’s Mountain have recently posted their frustrations, as foreigners, with how many mainland Chinese negatively respond to the very notion of “racism” in China. At best, there seems to be a difference over what the word “racism” means, between many Chinese and non-Chinese (most notably North Americans). At worst, these Chinese people seem incapable or utterly unwilling to admit to the mere existence of racism in their society. The latter doesn’t sit well with many Westerners. Nothing is as outrageously aggravating as blatant ignorance and self-delusion.
Bottom Line: Yes, Chinese people discriminate too.
No big surprise there. Look, racism is just a form of discrimination, and like every country, society, and people, many Chinese can and do discriminate on the basis of race, ethnicity, or skin color. They will do it for mundane things and they can do it for more important things. They may stand a bit further away from you on the bus or they may hire someone else over you. It happens.
Like you and I, some people’s racism will be glaringly obvious while others will hide it really well, when they can’t control it. We can discuss the reasons behind it in Chinese society or compare them to examples in other societies all day long and it won’t change the simple fact that the phenomenon exists. It’s human and they’re human too. It sucks…but a lot of things in life suck.
But why won’t many Chinese admit it?
Don’t get hung up on the vocabulary…
Forget the word “racism” or “racist” for a moment. Give them the benefit of the doubt. No one said cross-cultural communications would be easy, and the first thing that comes to your mind may not be the first thing that comes to their minds. More importantly, the vocabulary matters much less than you two understanding each other and what you’re each trying to say.
If you want to have a conversation on the subject (or any contentious subject for that matter), start with these two steps:
- What is your point? What is the conclusion you’re trying to reach with the person you’re talking with (or to)?
- What is something both of your can agree upon, a common ground, before moving on?
Both of these are critical in the order they are presented.
For #1, are you trying to get the Chinese person to acknowledge and agree that racial discrimination, racial prejudice, or “racism” exists in China amongst Chinese? Or are you coming across as accusing them of discriminating, being prejudiced, and thus “racists?” There’s a subtle difference there. Set aside your intentions for a moment and consider how the other person might interpret or misinterpret you.
…it doesn’t change the existence of the phenomenon.
That directly leads us to #2. Instead of using the word “racism,” opt instead to simply describe what you’re referring to. Better yet, you can start off with asking the Chinese person to explain their definition of racism to you, having them give you examples. Pass over politically-charged examples and steer towards the obvious and simple ones that, again, both of you can agree on. There’s a good chance those examples will come from the West or from where you’re from. You’re comfortable with that, right? Give examples and then draw parallels. If you can get them to draw the parallels for you, congratulations, you’re a pro.
Here’s an easy starting point: The wisdom of using appearance to judge merit or ability. “Racism,” of course, is a bit more complicated than that, but a few simple and easily identifiable examples can lower the initial walls of defensiveness. Two easy examples:
- Does a person’s CV (resume) picture say everything about their qualifications for a job?
- Will a hot girl necessarily be good in bed? *wink wink nudge nudge*
Agree on the phenomenon first and, if the semantics really matter to you, then discuss the labels (in your respective languages) that one can apply. “Racism” is just a label for a kind of discrimination, and if “racism” doesn’t go over smoothly, “prejudice”, “bias”, and “that’s just not fair, dammit” work pretty well too.
Have you had a touchy conversation or argument over “racism” in China? Did you get somewhere meaningful in the end? Or were your forced to conclude that the other person was just a hopelessly deluded (or annoyingly self-righteous) idiot?
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Websites like chinaSMACK are as accurate a representation and reflection of foreigners as it is of Chinese people. Why do so many fight racism with more racism?
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I’m in Austin, Texas ya’ll!!! I’m currently at the Austin Asian-American Film Festival, if ya’ll in the area, come by Saturday for my film’s...
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Did Jackie Chan really say “Chinese people need to be controlled”? Let’s take a look at the Chinese and see if his comments were taken out of context and sensationalized by the Western media.
Foreigners Attacking Chinese Racists Reveal Their Own Racism 
“Hollywood Chinese” Pinched A Nerve – Racism in Asian-American Cinema 
Jackie Chan Said “Chinese Need To Be Controlled”, Or Did He? 
I need a Chinese lesson on this! Is this the term for racial discrimination?
种族歧视 (zhong4 zu2 qi2 shi4)
It seems to me that broader term “discrimination” (歧视) is a good way to bring this topic up. I’d start this way:
1. There seem to be lots of examples of “unfairness” in Chinese society, right? City people look down on Chinese outsiders (waidiren). Migrant workers without a hukou can’t get their kids into school or get health care.
2. Sometimes this “unfairness” can be based on personal characteristics. E.g. One college student I know said that she wanted to be a computer network operator but they wouldn’t hire women for the job. What about “Crooked Teeth Gate”? why couldn’t the girl with the beautiful voice (and perfectly fine appearance) be allowed to sing the song in the Olympics opening ceremony? Isn’t that “unfair”? Isn’t that “discrimination”? It is when it is directed at someone personally because of something that they are (a waidiren, a peasant, a woman, a girl with crooked teeth).
3. Don’t you think that sometimes this “discrimination” is because of “race”? Yes, yes, I know you think China takes good care of the 55 ethnic minorities and the Government gives them all lots of money and support, and of course I know you say the T1betans are sleeping in beds of RMB100 bills. And yes, yes, its possible many of them don’t appreciate the support and just laze around, and yes, of course you never went there and saw this yourself but everyone knows it to be true because not only is it in the official press (which is of course biased) but its all over the internet too. But isn’t it possible that race-based “unfairness” and “discrimination” could be a bad thing for China in the future? Shouldn’t China learn from all the mistakes that it has seen other countries like the United States make in its past, so it can be a great nation in the future?
That’s how I would approach it.
Anyway, its an interesting topic that shows how different the context is inside of Chinese society.
Chinese people don’t really care about racism even if you point out the glaringly obvious racism undertone (or outright racist remarks) in their speech. They just shrug it off… This is sad.
I don’t think that many Chinese think about Racism in that term. The problem is that there are still relatively few foreigners in China so for more Chinese, interacting with them is rare. I think many Chinese don’t see racism as a sensitive topic because most of them are used to be a homogeneous society.
To be fair, sometimes those racist undertones or outright racist remarks don’t come from any nasty intent. For many of them, it is just natural to remark about an obvious or common difference and they don’t mean any harm. As pug_ster points out, it’s helpful to consider the the context of their social perspective, where many of them live in a largely homogeneous society and different “races” are more a matter of novelty than an ongoing issue of racial strife and integration.
Of course, this doesn’t change the fact that their comments or undertones can still be taken as hurtful by others, but a little willingness to mutually understand can go a long way.
Just like in the US, racism exist in China, but it is accepted part of society. People make fun of other races in people’s living rooms, with other colleges, and co-workers. Like what Shane9219 says, there is not discrimination as China has no laws against a race. Even in China, you can’t control people’s thought. It is unfortunate that even in the US it does take some kind of heinous act like lynchings or segregation to force Americans to face racism head on. Unless we see a similar situation in China, I doubt that China will take racism issue seriously.
The Chinese are practical people above all else. If a generalization is useful in a practical sense, it should exist. That is, if grouping of cultures linked to prevalent characteristics – ex. Sichuan people eat spicy food, Shanghainese would rather talk than fight, Americans love big cars, Latins run late – is useful in navigating a complex social landscape, then it should exist.
I wonder if this conversation is about two deeper issues: 1. denial – which is present in every individual and of course every culture and 2. cultural standards for what is offensive or derogatory. And it may not be about those issues at all, but in case it is…I felt like writing about it.
Chinese culture allows us to compliment people for their beauty, intelligence, etc. People typically take no offense in China when informed that they look terrible or that they have done something stupid. It’s impractical to waste energy on such things; and in fact if one does look terrible or has acted stupidly, that is useful information to have. Americans will file a sexual harrassment suit if told we look good today, let alone of we are told we look fat in those pants.
Americans and Chinese, in other words, obsess on different aspects of appearance, and on different definitions of what constitutes weakness. Americans, as individuals, take great pains to project an apperance of attractiveness, skill, success. So we don’t take well to being told when we fall short of those personal goals. Chinese are immensely concerned with perceptions at a group level – and the ultimate example is whether the West sees China as a strong nation. Having a gap-toothed singer at the Olympics might mean that Chinese event productes couldn’t find a girl who was both a great singer and very pretty. (The Chinese fear that would equate in western eyes to lack, weakness.)
Gift of the Magi. The Chinese want us to lighten up and admit that in fact we do look fat in those pants, and furthermore, that it is not a big deal. Which it really isn’t, and we’re just overly obsessed with how “perfect” we look as individuals.
And we want the Chinese to get real and let the gap-toothed girl sing at the Olympic opening ceremony, despite her physical “imperfection”. In other words, it’s okay if a Chinese girl that millions of people watch as part of a deliberately flawless presentation isn’t physically without flaw. On the other hand, if we freak out because we look fat in thsoe pants, it’s a big loss of face.
Both of your two deeper issues are definitely relevant to all this fuss over “racism in China.” Personally, I think both Fool’s Mountain and ChinaGeeks (along with Hecaitou) are getting too hung up on semantics.
LoL, I’m not sure how far I’d agree with your juxtaposition between Americans and Chinese, but they were pretty amusing nonetheless.
It’s simple , don’t confuse racism with discriminiation.
I wrote the Fool’s Mountain post. Didn’t realize this was such a touchy subject for so many Chinese people. It strikes me as really weird, not that people have strong feelings about it, but that people would outright deny its existence yet still expect to be taken seriously. (I assume we wouldn’t get the same response from minorities in China; we have friends living in minority areas who could tell stories…)
Anyway, I was actually just trying to get a general idea of popular Han ideas regarding racism, since it was obvious to me that they were working with a different set of assumptions/definitions from the rest of us. I didn’t think there’d be a “China does/doesn’t have racism” debate because I thought it was a given. I’ll answer your questions from the end of your post after the dust settles. ;)
I cannot agree more. A lot of people who born in big cities are always looking down upon those from small villages. In Wuhan, I even sometimes hear people saying “Wuchang is just a small village, Hankou is the real city”.
They are crazy and cannot be changed.
This is hilarious. Luckily, I think sometimes regional differences and stereotypes are a source of good-natured joking and humor, not just real discrimination.
In New York City, many Manhattanites often joke about the “Bridge and Tunnel” crowd, to suggest that anyone who doesn’t actually live on the island of Manhattan is unsophisticated and lacking in taste. In fact, I had one person ask me if they could filter all user reviews in my company’s travel search engine to only people from Manhattan because he didn’t trust the advice of anyone who didn’t live on the island!
Next time I meet someone from Wuhan, I will ask them what part of Wuhan they are from, to see if they are a “real” Wuhan person or a mere villager. LOL.
What? Are you saying not all Wuhan people are rude bus drivers and not all NorthEastern Chinese are violent?
CHINASMACK AND CHINAGEEK ARE RUN BY A FALUN GONG CULTIST NAMED FUANA (A SHORT MALE THAT READS HANYU)
IT IS ACTUALLY A VERY VERY RACIST ANTI-HAN ANTI-CHINESE WEBSITE, SUPPORTED BY ANGLO (LAO WAI WESTERN), IT BANS ASIAN PEOPLE AND POSTERS THAT PUT UP ANY FIGHT AGAINST THE MASSIVE LAO WAI HATER POSTERS ON IT. ITS FULL OF BS
sorry for the caps, but chinageek (chinasmack = same) you have a traitor in your midst.
It is also full of child porn (i kid you not! its full of nude video of Teenage girls fighting, because anglo lao wai likes this) it puts down on all asian women as just flowers for its caucasian readers, any real asian posters are eventually banned.
Shanghiaed Shanghailist chinageek chinasmack all run by lao wai and their falun gong traitor pet dogs.
Dude, I’m a “real Asian poster” and I’m not banned from chinaSMACK.
Please don’t spam our website.
I’m a foreigner, and I have anything to do with any of those “KKK wannabe” cult that you mentioned. But, I think this blog is created for people to share their mind and opinion on certain issues in China. So, please don’t provoke other people with your “savage opinion.” Open your mind to differences in opinion otherwise, please consider things before you post something like this.
But, Kai Pan, when you are talking about comparative racism it is exactly about semantics!
‘Race’ is loaded with meaning beyond the phenotypical difference the term used to imply, which means that racism exists even though ‘race’ is not the dividing issue. With the discrediting of eugenics the dominant forms of racism in the contemporary world are perhaps cultural racism (see Miles) and class racism (see Balibar). In order to eradicate discrimination we need to be clear about its actual basis, and this is rarely well served by the use of blanket terms like ‘racism’ which we then try and stuff all forms of discrimination – urban/rural, north/south/east/west, employment, religious, linguistic, phenotypical etc – into. This is especially so as the term ‘racism’ arouses revulsion in a way that few other references of discrimination do.
It’s also interesting to hear you talk of racism in the West. The notion of a homogenous West is always tricky, but I understand it usually has some validity. However, racism in the US is far different from racism in Western Europe, for example, where the lack of in situ ex-slaves and the challenges of migrant cultures and languages means that talk of ethnicity is more dominant. Indeed, we sometimes even talk of a ‘post-racial’ society, although it’s my hunch that this is still more ideal than reality.
And as racism takes different forms between places, it also takes on different meaning in/through language and speech. Again, then semantics are important because of translation. It is often noted that Western academics find the translation of minzu particularly difficult. The interrelations of geography, class, ethnicity, race and nation are difficult to pin down in one language with reference to one country, so heaven help us in the fight for clarity when comparing such diverse social and cultural histories.
So, as Elliott Ng notes, what we’re really talking about is how the Chinese discriminate. There are a few other posts here which mention other social cleavages, and I think it’s important to question whether or not racism is not a special class of discrimination. I’m yet to see a good blog post laying bare the foundations of racism in contemporary China.
Andy,
No offense, but what you said above is either irrelevant to what I posted here or not at odds with what I’ve said. I’m having a Good Will Hunting moment though.
From what I observe…
Chinese are friendly to foreigners, but foreigners will forever be foreigners.
In the U.S., a Chinese can become an American. In China, even if a non-yellow skin people holds a PRC passport, he or she is still not Chinese.
That’s true. China isn’t quite the multi-racial melting pot like the United States is (especially the American coasts), but then again, China never really fashioned itself to be that way.
Hey! Out there they don’t half to. Because there human! Like all of us. So don’t be a hater! Out there.let’s start liveing! And stop all that bull” ok..ok..it’s all love.one.p.s this world is to big let’s have some fun. Lol.
Hey! Again we can talk about it all day long for yrs and yrs. That’s just some people.the way they see things. As time moves on in this world. It will get better that’s just the way it is. Life. Be happy. Anyway.it’s ok. Everybody got feelings..
Why they won’t admit it? Cause they want to look good. Simple as that. Saving face. That’s what they do in China. I’m gonna go a little off topic for a minute. When a Chinese person will not explain why she refuses to contact you again after you first go out to dinner with her. Yeah. She’s angry for some reason. But she won’t say why. Why else would she just blow you off after you had fun with her the night before? It’s obvious she’s angry at you. Even when you did absolutely nothing wrong. Folow the Chinese tradition as best as you know how. But she just for no apparent reason rejects you. When a Chinese person is angry at you for any reason, they will never give you an answer. If they feel compelled to give you an answer, they will tell you an answer which is different than what the real reason is. Something they think will make sense to you.
But all their secrets about foreigners and how and why they are angry at one foreigner in particular, they will tell their other Chinese friends. But not you. All the true feelings they have towards foreigners are shared only between Chinese. If you are a foreigner who is ethnically Chinese, you’ll have it easier. Even if you don’t know the language. It’s not a cultural thing. It’s a racial thing. If you aren’t Chinese descent, don’t expect anything from them.
Note: I’m talking about remote area culture. Bigger cities with more foreigners, you will likely find more Chinese people who will accept you as a friend regardless of whether or not you are Chinese. Of course you may not be their friend on the same level that Chinese are with each other, but in a bigger city you will find some that will accept you.
But to get back onto topic. Why do Chinese not admit racism exists in China?
“Saving face” =making themselves look better than what they are. Covering up.
one reason why there is no racism in china is because most foreigners assimiliate or they are there for a short time. Now if they were immigrants and were not assimiliable things would get messy
Very interesting comments. Based on personal experience and living and working in a lot of countries, racism is alive and well and always has been……and always will!
Why the urge to make the Chinese admit that they have racism within their borders? Is it blatantly obvious,…….or do most people just ‘go with the flow?”
I find humour in the fact, that there are people whom wish to change the world, and the people in it,………..and become upset if everyone else doesn’t adhere to their doctrine or point of view.
Why don’t you go to Japan,….Russia,…Germany,…U.S.A…Mexico…Argentine…and every other country and ask the population the same question? It’s amazing how many people are not racist,……untill the situation presents it’s self.
I have noted, that persons such as yourself, were stragely silent, when Japan displayed signs out side restaurants, bars and the like, stating that foreigners were not permitted to enter, likewise a number of other countries. I have been a victim of racism numerous times,….but what power said that life was going to be easy?
Remove your rose tinted spectacles and do the best with what you have!!!