A Beijing based friend of mine, Frank Yu, wrote a lengthy essay on Shanghai vs. Beijing inside Quora, some sort of Web 2.0 question & answer site. Here’s a link to the article. However, if you are not a member, you can’t see the content. So I thought I would post his comment here, to see if our valued (but sometimes pug_nacious) commenters would rise up to debate the relative merits of Frank’s arguments, and show their true colors as a Beijing or Shanghai partisan. Go ahead: start commenting, you don’t even have to read this post. You already know what you think!
Here’s where I stand on this issue. I find this to be one of the most tired debates out there, and usually embraced by people fresh off the boat in China. I was certainly like that too, easily impressed with gleaming infrastructure, modern airports, roads, and beautiful office buildings in first-tier cities. Even to this day, about 95% of my time in China is spent in either Shanghai or Beijing, so naturally that’s the way I would frame the question of geographic and regional diversity in China, right? It’s always easy to have just 2 choices to debate: Red vs. Blue, North vs. South, China vs. the West, Lakers vs. Celtics, Manchester United vs Liverpool, paper vs. plastic, Mac vs. PC, iPhone vs. Android, innovation vs. copycatting, black vs. white, with us vs against us…perhaps it is just a fundamental structure of our brain that we must approach things in a Hegelian dialectic. Inspired by Hegel, Marx himself embraced and ultimately fetishized this concept into a grand conception of historical dialectic materialism. Clearly Marx was dead wrong. (Or was he–like Mao–also 70% correct?)
Very Shanghai
An Essay on Shanghai vs. Beijing by Frank Yu
But lets set aside pretentious philosophical and historical references (oh but it was fun) and get back to Frank Yu, and the Shanghai vs. Beijing question. Here I pull from Frank’s words:
In a world of generalizations this has to be one of the most sensitive questions in China today when speaking with people (ask them where they are first).
I am a bit biased since I live in Beijing and have obvious respect for both the city and the people of the Northern Capital.
I believe the previous answers were answered quite well so I will focus on more subjective and personal differences. (So if they sound like over-generalizations…they are. Take them with a grain of yan.)
The people of Beijing and Shanghai.
Beijing people are a people that clearly live in and love the history of their ancient city, even from back when it was called Yanjing. They know full well that this is the seat and center of power in China. So Beijing people are people of the past.
Shanghai people love modernity and are proud of their rapid ascent from fishing village to a global modern city in a century or less. They are proud of their achievements but even more, they are proud of their future. Shanghai people live in the future and dream of bigger and better things for themselves and their city. Shanghai people adopt and embrace the change. No surprise that Shanghai has been a hotbed of radical ideas, fashions, and money for China.
Attitude towards foreigners and other Chinese. (This is my opinion.)
Both residents of their cities are quite proud of their cities, their food, and their particular way of speaking Chinese. Beijing folks speak their Mandarin with an arrr sound at the end and change words like gongyuan to gongyuar or the word Men to sounding like Mer. Although Mandarin, this is known as the Beijing accent.
Shanghainese have their own language group which is mostly unintelligible to other Chinese. Shanghai people use this as a way of identifying each other but also to exclude other Chinese in the conversation. You can meet many foreigners who speak Mandarin, but few speak Shanghainese so its clearly a way for Shanghainese to differentiate themselves from the rest of China.
When it comes to foreigners (Western ones), the Shanghainese are very service-oriented and defer to foreigners and their money very well. However, like many former colonial cities and countries in Asia, they serve but in a way despise foreigners and the shame of former colonial sins in their own city. Of course, I would not really say they hate foreigners, but deep down they have some hangups with them and hope for a day when the tables are turned and they can be the big monetary cheese being served by others. English and Western styles can be easily found in Shanghai.
Bejing folks really have no issues with foreigners except that burning of the winter palace thing. They look to foreigners as equals and not as former colonial vassals. Since Beijing has been invaded by so many foreign powers and eventually turned them into Chinese mirrors of themselves, Beijing people find foreigners curious and quaint and can actually warm to them in time. Friendships between foreigners and local Beijing people are not uncommon since Beijing people are quite confident of their social and cultural superiority to the world that they don’t mind letting foreigners into their world. That said, the Beijing concept of service is terrible on a global standard and the level of English is quite poor for a “global” city. Beijing people have a term to describe themselves from the Chinese people from other provinces in China who come to Beijing to work and study: Lao Beijingren, “Old Beijinger”.
Styles and taste.
Very Beijing...for now
Shanghai people are more sophisticated in terms of styles and taste. Their food is delicious and their fashion sense excellent. Hairy Crabs and Steamed Soupy Meat dumplings are some of the best cuisine in the world.
Beijing can be described as a bunch of small dusty villages that merged together under the shadow of the Forbidden City. Beijing people are kind of set in their ways and lifestyles, not as money-oriented as the Shanghainese are. Beijing people have almost an imperial love and facility with bureaucracy with politics and process. True Beijing folks are not entrepreneurial; they love the status of being in government or the arts, or being a scholar due to the many universities in the city. That said, Beijing people sometimes come off as simple and unsophisticated from their manners and dress. Don’t let that fool you; just because Beijing people look a bit old school, doesn’t mean they aren’t quite astute and byzantine in their plans and way of thinking.
Beijing food is divided into two styles: imperial style and homestyle. The emperor, nobles, and mandarin elites ate imperial style with fine ingredients and complex ways of cooking it. Many of the fancy food in banquets and restaurants serve imperial style food. Peking Duck may be the most well known of these dishes.
However, most Beijing people eat home style dishes which are noodles with some sour brown gravy put on top. The ingredients are simple and cheap and not really appealing for those with discerning palates. Unless it’s deep fried and buried under a layer of some brown sauce, then it’s not home style.
Overall…
Overall, both cities have a lot going for them. Calling one a better city really depends on you the person and your lifestyle preferences. A great way to endear yourself with residents of the city is to start a conversation degrading the other. This seems to be a favorite pastime of conversation. If in doubt, make fun of the city of Wuhan.
Why pick on Wuhan? As a southerner, I’ll embrace my fellow southern bretheren in Wuhan, and propose that the country folk of Harbin be the target of good-spirited teasing instead. But we can all agree that our Western friends from Xian are honest and sincere, right?
So where do you stand?
Shanghai Starbucks Xintiandi photo credit: Iknowthiscity.com
Beijing Nanluoguxiang photo credit: Flickr ksquare
LoL, it IS fun!
I think Frank’s answer is pretty even-keeled actually and all very good humored. Not so sure I agree with him suggesting the Shanghainese are much more hung-up about foreigners than Beijingers. I think there’s plenty of that in both cities.
The Wuhan crack was hilarious but my personal whipping boy is Guangdong.
C’mon you got to be more specific than that. Are you talkin’ smack about Guangzhou, Chaozhou, Shenzhen, Dongguan, or some other little factory town? If you’re gonna diss my GD homeboys I’d like to know more…
Truthfully, I don’t like either one of them. My favorite city is Shenzhen. I grew up in a migrant city in the United States so maybe this is why Shenzhen talks to me. So many different people from all over China and its many different cultures. The extreme differences within the city marvels me. You see modern Shanghai style buildings and also 1960 style Hong Kong. Simply beautiful.
Say more. It seems pretty soulless to me. SZ seems like all business, all the time. But I’m open minded. Is there art? culture? some kind of distinctive SZ character?
BJ is also full of migrants, it is a destination for people from every province of China…just like SZ.
I guess it is hard to describe. There is an art scene in every city if you look for it. I never cared too much for looking at art, I am more interested in creating my own.
I like Shenzhen because of the feeling it gives me. Maybe it is all about money but the city I was raised in was said to be all about money too. People also said it has no culture and art, so go figure. I like the constant and rapid change of Shenzhen, a new beginning for many people where very few people can be called natives. The city has a great duality and balance. It is a city filled with new hope and optimism and also a sense of lost dreams. It is a city where you can decide to be something different whenever you want.
A city is a makeup of the people and overall I seem to like the people of Shenzhen the most (maybe it is because I am surrounded by my wife’s family). I do like Beijing and Shanghai for vacation or short visits, but I call Shenzhen and its suburbs my home.
This whole conversation is moot; everyone knows Tianjin is the greatest city in China.
It seems my friend David Feng hangs out there all the time. So what’s so great about Tianjin? I have never been there so I’m curious.
I’ve lived in Tianjin for six+ years now and it’s a laid-back, fast developing city with a reasonable standard of living and foreigner friendly, “colorful” locals. This is probably the main reason why David comes here so often.
That said, the Bohai region overall is nice to live in, and Tianjin’s not even the most beautiful city of the three big cities on the sea here. Dalian and Qingdao beat Tianjin with their seasides, mountains, and cleaner environment, though Tianjin strikes back with slightly faster development, better universities, more history, and convenient travel to Beijing.
Of course, talking up Tianjin may be moot in a few decades if Beijing and Tianjin merge into a mega-metropolis.
Wuhan is like the Cleveland of China since its in the center. Among the Chinese, it has another reputation, the ugliest girls in all of China. Usually, when you go to a city, residents take pride in their city at being the best of everything. So when I went to Wuhan, each time I took a taxi, I would go to the driver and say, “I hear the girls of Wuhan are the prettiest in all of China.” 5 out of 5 that I asked thought otherwise and said something like I don’t think so .
That said, the women of Wuhan seem to run the same range of pretty to fugly as any other city so I’m not sure where it got this rep. I suspect Wuhanese have a self -esteem thing going or a very good sense of humor.
Great post, Frank. Beijing, of course, is better.
Heh. When I went to Wuhan, I noticed makeup plus leggings overkill on the girls. If only they had scrunchies, it would be like being stuck in a bad 80s music video.
The reason for the Beijing vs. Shanghai debate in expat circles is that the vast majority of expats spend most of their time in one of the two cities (or both). There aren’t a lot of white collar expats stuck in Wuhan (or Harbin, or Xian, or whatever city that isn’t Beijing, Shanghai, or Shenzhen). There aren’t a lot of foreign language students in Wuhan (or Harbin or Xian) either. I find this debate far more tiresome and far more heated among expats than it would be among Chinese friends who usually could care less.
As for Frank’s article, it appears he was just writing based on the typical stereotypes/broad brushstrokes. He comes off as very pro Shanghai and looks like he’s writing from 1890 or something, far removed from modern reality. There were a number of passages that were downright wrong.
“When it comes to foreigners (Western ones), the Shanghainese are very service-oriented and defer to foreigners and their money very well”
“Shanghai people are more sophisticated in terms of styles and taste. Their food is delicious and their fashion sense excellent”
“Beijing people sometimes come off as simple and unsophisticated from their manners and dress. Don’t let that fool you; just because Beijing people look a bit old school, doesn’t mean they aren’t quite astute and byzantine in their plans and way of thinking.”
“most Beijing people eat home style dishes which are noodles with some sour brown gravy put on top. The ingredients are simple and cheap and not really appealing for those with discerning palates. ”
The last two statements are so far removed from 2010 reality its laughable…
I tend to take the Detroit/Chicago View when it comes to New York vs. Los Angeles debates like this…
… be polite to the debaters as you backtrack out of the room, and go enjoy some GuangDong cuisine, while watching real work done.
For anyone that comes from a blue collar background – there is more than resonates in cites and towns of GuangDong than the tourist traps that are Beijing and Shanghai.
Xintiandi and Tianzhifang blow. Nanlouguxiang and Wudaokou for life yo!
This has nothing to do with the people of Shanghai (although a population of 23 million must mean that most residents are not Shanghainese) but I think SH is more attractive to carpetbaggers and people who seriously desire a fresh start. In BJ, I think that foreigners don’t need to be one thing or another although it must be a magnet for espionage so spies, spies, spies everywhere you turn (I’m sure there are plenty of spies in SH as well.) I don’t really understand how SH can be a great city when it looks SO difficult to get around in. And I think the retail is excessive and needs reorganizing.
When it looks? So you haven’t actually used transportation around Shanghai. Have you tried to get around in Beijing? Its just as sprawling as L.A. but with worse traffic and a mediocre metro system.