Gabriel Monroe, 2006 Chili King of Beijing (Credit: the Beijinger Magazine on Flickr)
If you’re an expat in China, how many local Chinese friends do you honestly have?
I’m not talking about your co-worker or the neighbor you might occasionally wave “hello” to. Moreover, I’m definitely not talking about that one Chinese person you keep on your phone whenever you need help dealing with China’s authorities and the bureaucratic formalities of your stay here.
I’m talking about a real friend, someone you genuinely respect and regard as your equal. This is someone you talk with and listen to, not someone you talk to and get answers from. You don’t just share common interests, you pursue these interests together. I’m talking about that person whom you like, associate with, or even envy because of who they are and not what they can do for you. Someone you’d invite to your wedding and seat them near the front because you’d actually care to talk to them on your big day.
How many do you have?
If I told you exotic Chinese bed-buddies, mistresses, girlfriends, or wives don’t count, how many then?
How often do you guys hang out?
Relative to how often you hang out with those of your own “kind”?
I see a lot of foreigners in China who more or less only surround themselves with other foreigners. This is particularly true when you go out for a night on the town, where the closest thing to cross-cultural socializing is usually foreign men hitting on, er, “upwardly aspirational” Chinese girls. I’m not just talking about white men either.
Oh, I know foreigners and local Chinese tend to gravitate towards different places when it comes to nightlife and socializing. I know much of it has to do with differences in what they can afford and what sort of social environment they prefer. I know there are plenty of other reasons as well, and plenty of exceptions too.
But just how well are you integrating into this country and the people of this society? Just how well are you identifying with them and understanding them, as people who despite such extreme differences in background and upbringing, still feel the same basic emotions? Or are you separate and removed from them? Isolated? Do you see them as people you can learn from or people who should learn from you? Are they background noise to you? Obstacles in your way? The uncouth natives that would be too politically incorrect to wish they were either more like you or just weren’t there?
Yes, it is true, the Chinese diaspora doesn’t do a good job of integrating with their adopted countries either, shacking themselves up in their Chinese communities and surrounding themselves with other Chinese immigrants so they can all speak Chinese with each other. Yes, that’s pretty much true for many expats or immigrants of any ethnic group. So, hey, what’s wrong with Westerners doing likewise, socializing and fraternizing with only the people they most comfortably identify and can communicate with? Why should you break your comfort zone just because you’re in China? What makes the Chinese people so much more deserving of you going out of your way bridging culture and language gaps in hopes of establishing more meaningful friendships?
Absolutely nothing.
You don’t have to and there’s no real objective reason you should. There’s just a lot of other people with their own values and interests telling you to be more like them. The truth is that it is your life and your choice. You may, however, want to reflect upon what your original goals were for coming to China in the first place. You may want to ask yourself whether your lifestyle decisions are helping you reach those goals. Are you satisfied with your life here in China? Are you happy? If you’re not, why are you still here?
You should only do what matters to you. Others will just have to accept what matters to you based upon what you do.
What do you think? Is there an objective reason expats or foreigners should strive to make real meaningful friendships with local Chinese while they’re in China?
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A breakdown of day-to-day living expenses suggests it’s very difficult for most urban Chinese & near-impossible for expats to live on 100 RMB/week. But per day?
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Since chinaSMACK popped into the scene, other English China blogs have increasingly copied its formula of translating Chinese discussion forum news and content.
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The slang term 小资 (xiaozi) originates from the Marxist term petty bourgeoisie, but means “yuppie” or “hipster” in today’s China. We’ve developed a 20 question quiz to tell if you or your Chinese friends are xiaozi. See if you agree with us.
Can Expats Live In China On 100 RMB/week? 100 RMB/day? 
English China Blogs Increasingly Translate Chinese Forum Content 
Are you or your Chinese friends 小资 (xiaozi)? (quiz) 
If I had the opportunity to work in China I would jump on it (I’m in IT, software configuration management, resume available on request, reasonable salary requirements, call me!) I would prefer to socialize with the locals. I can socialize with westerners anytime, why miss out on an opportunity to really truly experience all sorts of things you simply can’t experience back in your country of origin? Certainly my socializing would be constrained by the reality of having to socialize primarily with people who have young children who would want to play with my young children, but that’s the only sort of qualifier I can imagine.
Generally people only want to hang out with people that have similiar interests. Nothing to do with whatever country vs whatever country.
The so called “generation gaps” are in actually belief differences. I’ve got no problems talking to open minded people from any generation, country, religion. But I can’t stand people that hide behind the excuses “because its tradition”, “this is the way its always been done”, “tai bu gou yi shi le”, “gei wo dian lian a”, etc
Offtopic, anyone know what happened to http://www.mgzy.com. Thanks
物以类聚，人以众分。 It is pretty natural for people to just stay in his/her comfort zone. Actually business and love interests are the biggest reasons for breaking this comfort zone:)
A returnee friend of mine characterized Shanghai as having 3 parts: Expat Shanghai, Mainstream Shanghai (which he described as the upper-middle class professional Shanghai) and Working-Class Shanghai (which include migrant workers). He noticed that he was spending less and less time with Expat (mostly English-speaking) Shanghai and more and more with Mainstream Shanghai. Do people agree with this characterization? How have Chinese returnees found their return to China? Do they mostly stick with other returnees? or do they fully join Mainstream Chinese society?
My visits to China are often filled with meetings at Starbucks, Wagas and Element Fresh, so I know all to well how one can get stuck to what is most accessible, which is the Expat local scene.
Haven’t most Chinese gotten themselves English names? Maybe the expats should make some efforts to blend into the society.
to group up is no ground for blame. id say the phenomenon is in a prominent place when it happens in big cities.say beijing, shanghai, even london, nyc, paris aso..people say they r melting ports for different people, migrants or locals.but in such a hotchpotch what do people expect to go out meeting new people?using a movei’s line its like: a woman too beautiful, a voyage too long, a perfume too strong, music people don’t know how to make. which causes security-sense-insufficiency. saw expats quite well fitted into local when they are in smaller places where people are pure and secioty is simple. think thats where people would lay down and explore but yet put off with their airs.
Hmmm, interesting post. It’s been a 2 years since I was last in China, and 5 since I lived there on a long-term basis, so I can only speculate. But for what it’s worth…
Two things come to mind: could there be a generational change at work here? I’m a Gen-Xer, so I assume that most expats in Shanghai are Gen-Y. As with the Chinese equivalent (八零后) I note that these groups are often considered to be rather insular, among other things. Could the patterns you observe be more generational and less national in nature?
Another thing that comes to mind is to wonder about your own expat experience at Berkeley. What type of friend-making behavior did you notice among the overseas Chinese student population? Did Chinese students tend to group together and spend time mainly with other Chinese, or did they tend to make real efforts to make firends with Americans and “融入”? I’d be very interested to hear from you about your experiences and observations while at Berkeley.
Ok, I asked about your personal experience, so it’s only fair to share mine. Admittedly, I’m an unusual American because I was an expat kid and started primary school in Belgium. Also, my uncle taught in Beijing in the early 80’s and married a Chinese woman, so I grew up having family there.
When I did undergrad and post-grad study there (Beida) I was eager to get to know them and ordinary Chinese- that was the whole point of going there- I can study Chinese language anywhere, right? I chose a Japanese roommate over an American one when offered the choice and ditched the American crowd and hung out with his friends (learned a lot of Japanese) and ordinary Chinese + my family (learned a ton of Chinese) instead. As a result, I learned a lot about people- and China. Truly, the best thing about China is the people, and Chinese people are very easy to make friends with.
I’ve found that Chinese people are among the friendliest in the world and in my experience they have been the most loyal friends a person could ask for. When I make friends with a Chinese person (I have many both here, in Beijing, and in Taiwan) I know it’s a big deal, and I treat my friends accordingly, with all due respect and sincerity. With many friends we now consider each other family members (my godson- 干兒子) is Chinese. We have always done everything we can to help and support each other, and we always will- this is true friendship.
If anything, it’s been a bit difficult at times- being a friend is a serious obligation, it’s not all fun. Being a true friend means sticking together through thick and thin. Besides this, being an expat in China one is often approached by people seeking to make friends for various reasons, and one can quickly wind up with a lot of “酒肉朋友” if one is not careful. Sorting out the true friends from the fair-weather friends is a necessary prat of life anywhere though.
When I last taught at a university in Beijing, simply walking home from class went from being a simple 5-minute into a 30-45 minute process. Invariably, I’d run into students, and I would take the opportunity to talk with them outside the teacher-student relationship, but as people. Whenever I passed the 小賣部 next to my building, I’d have to jump rope for a while with the 6-year-old daughter of the owner and then chat with them, often sharing dinner with them as well. When the owner’s marriage hit the rocks, he came looking for me with a bottle of baijiu in his hand… so getting home could be a long process!
Final point: this kind of approach to life and making friends reminds me of my mother’s home town in the rural South. It’s a traditional place and wherever you go, you chat with everybody- you simply have to because you know everybody. I think that’s true in small towns all over the world. So I wonder about where the expats come from (mainly cities and suburbs?) and where most Chinese in major cities come from (mainly the countryside?) Could this be in influence in what you see? As you simply seeing people with more- and less-traditional upbringings interacting?
Great stories and good points. I do think generation gaps are as real as cultural gaps when it comes to their influence on interpersonal relationships or the fostering of interpersonal relationships. Both gaps refer to how people think, and ultimately what brings people together is the similarity of how they think. Hence, even people who differ greatly in age or culture can befriend each other simply because they think alike. The reverse, obviously, is what we most often see, that those who think differently due to differences in age or culture often fail to relate to each other.
alfra’s comment above also mentions how the differences in expat populations between big cities and smaller more rural areas may influence any particular expat’s motivation for seeking friendships with the locals. I think this is a major determinant for most people just as gravitating to those you perceive as being similar to you is a common and natural predisposition.
In America, people like “me”, often looked down upon the recently arrived immigrants who seemed entirely uninterested in improving their English, making friends of a different nationality/ethnicity, and generally failed at integrating. We looked down even more on those who persisted existing in the above way despite not having recently arrived.
As I’ve said, this isn’t really surprising and is really entirely understandable. I just personally think many of these people are too lazy to break their comfort zones and too uninterested in discovering the new experiences and opportunities that come from doing so. Of course, it is ultimately their choice and ultimately just my personal opinion that doing so generally lends towards greater mutual understanding and respect between different races, cultures, and people. Not everyone cares for something like that, or do so but through different means.
“If I told you exotic Chinese bed-buddies, mistresses, girlfriends, or wives don’t count, how many then?”
So, somebody you sleep with can’t be a friend?
“… closest thing to cross-cultural socializing is usually foreign men hitting on, er, “upwardly aspirational” Chinese girls.”
I think you’ve got a few issues to work through there, Kai. Your stereotypical characterisation of Chinese women who spend time with non-Chinese men is the reason my wife has been insulted in every corner of China we’ve visited together.
“…because of who they are and not what they can do for you.”
And exactly how well do you think the Chinese who ‘befriend’ foreigners score on that particular measure?
I did say “bed buddies,” didn’t I?
LoL, stuart, if I didn’t know any better, I’d say you’re feeling a little singled out and persecuted after reading this post. It’s okay, I understand, as I probably intentionally made this post a bit ambiguous. However, you’re jumping the gun with seeing blood. The fact is that I’m not bothered by interracial relationships or marriages, despite your suspicions and insinuations. I merely used that term to allude to an issue peripheral to the one I’m writing about that people often make a big deal about, as you implicitly know.
For the record, I’m sorry both you and your wife are insulted by various intolerant and ultimately insecure idiots in every corner of China. Unfortunately, it’s a common complaint by interracial couples everywhere in the world. Life sucks. Please avoid making preconceived notions about me just because you can see my Gravatar.
Johann Hari: How to spot a lame, lame argument
The post seems to imply that the lack of integration falls squarely on the lack of desire on the part of the expat, which I do not believe to be true in all cases. Nor is it particular to China. I’ve immigrated multiple times to different countries in the past 10 years…
The rest of my lengthy comments at http://www.luckymissxu.com/ramblings/?p=429
http://twitter.com/MissXu
I understand your interpretation, but actually this post is really about the expat’s side of the equation. By no means am I discounting the fact that the locals can meet halfway with regards to fostering cross-cultural friendships; it just isn’t what my post is about. You’re absolutely right that it is not particular to China, as I alluded to myself with the aside about the Chinese diaspora…but this post is written for CNR and thus the context is naturally China.
This kinda makes me feel like my worth as an expat is somehow related to the number of Chinese friends I have. I’m not here to collect friends on a scorecard. No doubt there are expats who spend all their time with other expats, just as there are expats who spend all their time with local friends. Who’s to say one is right or the other wrong? I’m seriously introverted and I find myself spending most of my time on my own or with my husband. That’s just what I’m comfortable with. To each their own. We all have different needs/wants.
As the conclusion of my post says, how you define your self-worth is up to you. I suggested that it could be a combination of what your goals are and how you feel you’ve accomplished those goals, since that’s a common measure for introspection. However, it isn’t necessarily what you’d apply to yourself. It is your choice about your life, remember?
Okay, I see your point, but it seems in the last paragraph (and I may be wrong) that you are equating happiness in China with having lots of Chinese friends. I don’t think it is so black and white. It is very subjective, and I suspect that you would agree with me. This post certainly has given me much to think about.
No, I’m equating happiness with whether someone feels they’re reaching their goals. If making Chinese friends was one of their goals and they’re not reaching it, then that might explain some of the unhappiness. So the next step is to decide what to do about it. Either break your comfort zones and get out there seeking what you want or stop torturing yourself in a place you aren’t happy in, right?
I’m definitely not so stupid as to think everyone cares to make Chinese friends or should. That’s kind of the main reason I stated, in bold: “Absolutely nothing.”
Well, it seems we agree. :) I guess your points just were not coming across to me the same as you intended. I have stated my personal position on this on Miss Xu’s blog, but I’ll repeat it here for clarity:
It could be said at times that I maybe don’t get as much as I could out of my China experience – I’ll own up to that. But the identification of “what it is we should be getting out of China” is such a personal thing. Due to my introversion, it is actually easier for me to be on the periphery of Chinese society (and others) and honestly, I derive a great deal of satisfaction in my experience from doing just that. And I think that is what is important. Am I happy? Immensely happy. I just don’t happen to have a lot of friends, expat or Chinese.
Word, and I suspect with regards to the number of friends, expat or Chinese, we have and our own personal happiness, we’re probably more alike than different! :)
Cheers.
Is this post a joke? Or just an attempt to gain page views with controversial idiocy? I almost can’t believe that Kai Pan would write this racist drivel. Chinese foreigner marriages equated with mistresses and one night stands? Blaming China expats for behavior that is equally evident amongst overseas Chinese communities? Dictating that foreigners must “like” China and make friends with Chinese people or go home? The implication that the failure of Chinese/expat friendships falls completely on the expat side? If this post represents CNReviews new image, then I’ll be happy to stop reading this blog.
LoL, AndyR, falling into the same trap as stuart above. I’ll leave you to what may be your reverse persecution complex. However, I’m afraid you’ve missed the point of this post entirely, and have instead allowed yourself to read into it what you most fear. As I said to stuart, it’s okay, because I probably intentionally made it easy to do that. You can hate me or CNR for that if you want, but it still doesn’t change the fact that you’re projecting.
Case in point: I didn’t dictate that foreigners must “like” China or go home. I suggested that expats ask themselves why are they still here if they’re not happy. Knee-jerk reactions are fun though.
“LoL, stuart”
Glad you’re amused, Kai.
“I didn’t know any better”
In this instance, you certainly do not …
“I’d say you’re feeling a little singled out and persecuted after reading this post.”
Hardly.
“It’s okay, I understand, as I probably intentionally made this post a bit ambiguous.”
Probably, intentionally, and ambiguous. Impressive.
“However, you’re jumping the gun with seeing blood.”
Now who’s projecting? I’ve seen this so often in responses of Chinese with anti-western leanings – the deliberate misrepresentation of an oponents position. No blood, no gun, just pointing out (and your reaction suggests I’m right) a few hidden demons in your original post.
“The fact is that I’m not bothered by interracial relationships”
I’m prepared to take you at your word, but I don’t think you’re in the majority in China. I’d be delighted to be proved wrong.
“For the record, I’m sorry both you and your wife are insulted”
Me too, not least because of the statement those insults make about a society that denies it has any racial issues.
“Unfortunately, it’s a common complaint by interracial couples everywhere in the world.”
Now you’re making ME laugh. I’ll leave you to gues how many times we’ve faced the same ignorant hostility here in Australia.
“Please avoid making preconceived notions about me just because you can see my Gravatar.”
For an intelligent guy, that was just a few neurons above ‘you look down upon me because I’m Chinese’. Which is not to say that I assume you are.
Oh stuart, you’re being bitter. ;)
Right back at ya!
Never said I’m in the majority in China, did I? It appears the little demons I accused you of above are still rearing their heads.
I take it you’re still pretty upset over the whole ChinaGeeks/Hecaitou affair?
I’ll leave you to decide whether or not you’re really trying to say that negative discrimination against interracial couples doesn’t happen outside of China in places like, I dunno, Australia.
The truth is we’ll never know just how you would’ve responded had you not seen my Gravatar. It’s an interesting hypothetical, don’t you think?
Regardless, I still maintain that you grossly missed the point of my post and your reactions suggest to me that you’ve projected certain insecurities borne from very understandable and very real causes pertaining to your marriage and stay here in China. That’s why I very graciously apologized for the offense caused to you by people completely unrelated to me other than by physical appearance. I note that you bitterly accepted it, as if my personal apology to you for the ignorant hostility of, I dunno, my “society” or my “kind” was warranted.
But hey, maybe I’m projecting onto you there. Communication is a tricky thing, being that it’s half what one person intended and half what the other person interpreted.
Anyway, I do wish you would have read my post more carefully, particularly the end, and noted that this post is all about rejecting the notion that expats somehow OUGHT TO make more Chinese friends and instead focus on doing whatever it is to reach their own personal goals, which could include making more Chinese friends if they so chose.
I don’t know about ‘need’, surely the main test is ‘want’ or ‘are able’? One doesn’t make friends because one ‘needs’ to – in fact most people find someone with an agenda off-putting in making friends. There is no ‘lifestyle choice’ involved in this, because whilst you can choose not to be friends with someone by simply not socialising with someone, you cannot choose to be friends with someone if your personalities, views, and interests do not coincide.
It would be fair to say that the people I made friends with whilst I was in China at least shared my interests, so most of the people I hung out with were my age and had more broad-minded outlooks. Taking all this into account I would say that about 1/3rd of people I hung out with in China were locals. In Taiwan it was more like 1/2 and 1/2.
There’s also the language problem – I’m fluent now, although it took years for me to get there, but I guess an awful lot of expats don’t speak Chinese well enough to be around people who cannot speak English/whatever. Remember, if you’re going out everyone needs to be able to speak to everyone else, so whilst you may be able to speak Chinese, you may not invite Chinese speakers if you have already invited a non-Chinese speaker (or vice-versa). Please don’t give me that guff about “but all Chinese people speak English nowadays” (strangely it is often non-Chinese speaking English-speaking folk who I hear this from), I don’t think I met more than about half a dozen native-born mainlanders who grew up on the mainland who were able to speak English without requiring the occasional bit of back-and-forth to get their meanings clear, and none who were entirely mainland-educated.
Finally, there’s politics – most expats can’t even open their mouths without slagging off the government, and an awful lot of Chinese are very nationalistic. This often makes for a bad mix. Add to this the fact that the almost the entire reason why young men go out to clubs to party is to meet women-folk (well, it sure as hell isn’t because you like QingDao beer, now is it?) and many locals disapprove of expats going with Chinese women, and you have the situation as described.
Now that I’m out of China do I still stay in touch with the local people I made friends with? Yes, most certainly I do.
All of my friends (regardless of nationality of ethnic background) here are people I work or worked with. I regularly meet up with my Chinese friends (who I no longer work with) and I totally see them as equals and respect their views.
Please do not assume that all expats who live here are the same. I don’t judge people by racial or national stereotypes. Do you?
I do have a Chinese name and really feel that it is completely confusing and unnecessary for people to have a new English name.
“I’ll leave you to decide whether or not you’re really trying to say that negative discrimination against interracial couples doesn’t happen outside of China in places like, I dunno, Australia.”
Of course I’m not saying that, and I think you know it. But, generally speaking, interracial couples don’t draw attention or comment in multi-cultural societies.
“Never said I’m in the majority in China, did I?”
And I clearly suggested the opposite. So your point is?
“The truth is we’ll never know just how you would’ve responded had you not seen my Gravatar. It’s an interesting hypothetical, don’t you think?”
Only if I’d consciously paid attention to your Gravatar. Let’s assume I didn’t. And it still wouldn’t surprise me to learn that you’re really the Sultan of Brunei’s second cousin working out of a disused yurt on the plains of Mongolia. Well, perhaps a little.
“…you’ve projected certain insecurities …you bitterly accepted it, as if my personal apology to you for the ignorant hostility of, I dunno, my “society” or my “kind” was warranted.”
Oh for Chrissakes, Kai! Are you a frustrated psychoanalyst? The bitterness and insecurities (although we all have some of those) you speak of exist only in your (mis)perception of my responses.
My reply to your apology reflected my concern that growing Chinese influence around the world is not going to serve the planet very well if there exists a deep-rooted and widespread belief that a Chinese woman who marries a foreigner is ‘infecting Chinese blood’. If you detect any bitterness in that opinion then I strongly recommend that you lie down for a while. On the couch, naturally.
“this post is all about rejecting the notion that expats somehow OUGHT TO make more Chinese friends”
Ostensibly, but you took a couple of swings along the way. That’s my perception, of course.
Now be nice, or I might revoke your blogroll privileges ;)
stuart, your denials do not change my perception of your reaction. Why? Because what you’re saying now doesn’t fit well with how you’ve come across (subjectively to me I grant) historically. I’ll change my opinion (which it necessarily must be) when I know more about you to compel me to conclude that I had previously misjudged your reaction and what I suspect to be the reasons for your reaction. It’s not psychoanalysis, stuart, I’m just doing what we all do: getting a feel for who someone is based upon what they say and do.
Either way, the bottom line is that you reacted as strongly to my piece above as I’m sure many people react to your blog posts. There’s a legitimate and worthwhile point in it all (for example, I liked your humorous 2012 Olympics post), but what got a rise was something slightly inflammatory but ultimately peripheral that we largely included just for artistic license.
“…but what got a rise was something slightly inflammatory but ultimately peripheral that we largely included just for artistic license.”
In the same way a tabloid uses pictures of scantily clad girls to boost sales, I suppose.
This is what you seem to be missing; although you touched on something (albeit ‘for artistic license’) that is salient to me, the ‘rise’ of your imagination is disproportionate to the reality.
“It’s not psychoanalysis, stuart”
No, just an overuse of the word ‘projected’.
No stuart, in the same way your own blog is openly inflammatory.
Says someone who has made four comments about it already and still can’t let it go?
LoL!
I have two close Chinese friends. Been here 12 years and I have gone thru a few friends but there has always been those two that have stuck around and remained good friends. But both are married now and the free time they have is less and less, I guess that is the way it goes. BTW, I only have one good ‘western’ friend in China, a Canadian.
Why go to another nation and then hang out with people from your own country?
Yeah, the whole growing up and getting shackled thing is definitely part of life. I don’t think most people go to another country intending to hang out with people from their own country or culture; it just sort of happens. As other commenters here have explained, there are plenty of reasons influencing whether or not any particular expat has serious Chinese friends, and not all of them are under their control. My post was just getting the expat reader to introspect, if they’re open to it, and consider if making Chinese friends (amongst other things) was a goal that they haven’t been pursuing. If it is, then hopefully they’ll be motivated to do so, not for anyone else, but for themselves.
Thanks for sharing your story. Cheers.
“in the same way your own blog is openly inflammatory”
Only to the over-sensitive.
“Says someone who has made four comments about it already and still can’t let it go?”
I wasn’t counting. Who’s in front on the numbers? Besides, I don’t respond because of an inability to let go; I respond in this case because you’re struggling to grasp my points and I’m keen to raise your level of awareness.
Let go of that one ;)
Says the oversensitive guy who missed the entire point of this post to rant on about an allusion to a known phenomenon.
LoL, I knew you’d try that one, except you’re forgetting that it’s quite natural for me to respond to comments ON MY OWN POST, whereas you’re responding over and over again about a non-issue. However, it’s okay, because I know you’re responding not because you have any real points to make about this post but only because you simply must have the last word. And hey, I admit I’m goading you on. What are you going to come back at me with this time? That you’re responding only because you’re playing mind games with me?
I don’t get the picture reference. I suppose it has something do with the fact that it appears to be a westerner and a chinese person palling around? In this photo, one is Canadian and the other American. Knowing both individuals personally, I’d say you picked a rather unlikely set of posterboys. This of course opens up a whole new can of worms regarding stereotyping …
Yeah, I just did an image search on Google and picked the first interracial picture of decent quality and that happened to be it. I clearly don’t know the two individuals personally and if the Asian guy is Canadian, then oops, my bad. Blame it on me being in Shanghai and not part of the cool Beijing crowd. Either way, I hope the accreditation to you guys was clear and sufficient.
“Let go of that one”
I’m not a fan of quoting myself, but I was right and this is too much fun:
“Says the oversensitive guy who missed the entire point of this post to rant on about an allusion to a known phenomenon.”
I don’t laugh out loud as often as I’d like, so thanks for that.
Rant? Nope. This was the last time: http://tinyurl.com/banktrouble , and that was over a year ago.
“LoL, I knew you’d try that one”
Really? I tried something? Was it like the time I tried some dodgy seafood in Xiamen?
“And hey, I admit I’m goading you on”
Ahh! Delusions of control. Whatever. I’m responding because you’re accusing me of things that have, at best, tenuous links with reality.
Sigh. As a last ditch attempt to bring this full circle before it devolves further into a vicious downward spiral of tit for tats:
One:
Are you referring to this very first comment of your’s?
As I’ve repeatedly said here and in other posts: You’re oversensitive and fail to read in context. Intentionally or not is another matter. Please don’t whine about me accusing you of things that have “tenuous links with reality” when you first got in my face doing likewise.
Two:
Remember this? Johann Hari: How to spot a lame, lame argument. Please read it.
Maybe you are looking at a localized point. I know of an expat who really interacts with the Chinese locals. Besides that it is required in his job, he really makes an effort to blend in.
Yes, I think people should look beyond the skin color and make friends with the majority “race” in the place.
In Shanghai, I wouldn’t make friends with the locals for fear of accidentally meeting Kai.
Joking aside, Kai does have a good point. How many foreigners in China have a local friend? If they don’t, does that show that foreigners are arrogant, insulated assholes that can’t make friends? Does it show that Chinese people come of as users who only wanna get from the foreigners what they can while they can? Does it show that most people are just shallow, uninteresting, and don’t work hard enough at keeping up relationships?
Kai, how many lasting meaningful friendships did you make in the States? If they’ve lasted, why? How many similar relationships do you have in Shanghai?
Mike, the point of my post wasn’t to accuse foreigners of being arrogant, insulated assholes, nor was it to say that Chinese people only make friends as a means toward some selfish end. I also don’t think most people are shallow, uninteresting, or don’t work hard enough at keeping up friendships.
Like most people, I think a variety of factors influence whether or not friendships develop and these factors are different for different people. Like most people, I have meaningful friendships with some people and not so meaningful friendships with others, again for the above same reasons.
My post was indeed speaking to expats, but the point of my post was to remind them to take a moment to evaluate what they’re doing right now. In this specific instance, it is about their satisfaction with their interpersonal relationships and friendships with locals relevant to their original goals for being here. If their friendships right now wasn’t what they originally expected for themselves, then at least now they’re aware of it and have yet another chance to mix things up for themselves. If they’re fine, then no worries.
Too often in life we set ourselves on cruise control and forget what the whole trip was meant to be about until it is too late.
“Too often in life we set ourselves on cruise control and forget what the whole trip was meant to be about until it is too late.”
True.
Froog at Froogville just responded with a great post listing all the ways in which he has made Chinese friends. Go check out the post.
Froog, sorry your comment got eaten. Just checked the spam filter and it isn’t there.
interesting article. my not-so-long stay (6 years) in the US might not be quite persuasive, but i really felt the same thing happens in the US. i did make few american friends while in the school i went to in boston. but during the three years of working in nyc, i hardly made american friends outside the office. in real life, asians play with asians, amigos play with amigos, etc. i am not talking about those who have were born in the states. a friend of mine who immigrated to the states when she was about 12 still complains that americans don’t sincerely regard her as their peers.
Right, I alluded to the Chinese diaspora in my post. I think it is entirely natural and expected for ethnic or national groups to gravitate towards each other in a foreign land, or as you say “asians play with asians, amigos play with amigos, etc.” People tend to flock with those most similar to them so language and cultural backgrounds do heavily influence who people associate with. Even when language isn’t a problem, there are still notable differences in how people of different backgrounds approach or react to certain things that makes it harder to connect or identify with each other.
I do, however, think that all of these barriers can be overcome by anyone who genuinely wants to overcome them. Whether they want to or not is entirely up to them and their own interest and reasons for doing so. You can learn a lot, but not everyone wants to or needs to learn those things. It’s a personal choice.
You’re absolutely correct Kai. I’m glad that somebody else has noticed such an astonishing phenomenon. No doubt there are many exceptions amongst the hundreds of thousands of foreigners in China, but I don’t think I’ve encountered a single expat with the sort of meaningful friendship that you’ve mentioned. Indeed I’d be pretty shocked if I did, it’d seem like a real ‘black swan’ moment based on my prior experience.
Actually, when this subject has been brought up in front of other expats, I’ve found that the stock reaction is to look shocked and slightly offended, followed by a verbal torrent along the lines of ‘NO WHAT HUH EH NO THAT’S BULLSHIT NO ACTUALLY I’VE GOT MANY…’, followed by the uncomfortable realization that the claim is completely correct.
Well, excuse me if I don’t indulge in some orientalist fantasy and have myself a little neo-colonialist safari, where I patronisingly pretend to be having a great time with people I don’t have anything in common with.
I have tried Kai. I was quite open-minded when I came here. I have, in fact, made Chinese ‘friends’, I have learnt the language. But I quickly realised that their likes of singing girlie songs, eating pig snout, drinking and smoking until sick, playing PC games weren’t really up my alley. Not to mention the fact that intellectualism is, besides some pockets in the big cities (and best universities), dead here. Mainland, Chinese people don’t really do ‘deep’, and most subversion and creative/critical thought is beaten out of them in their grueling mainland ‘education’ system (within days I made Taiwanese friends).
No doubt you have already started mapping out your response about my ‘generalising’, not looking hard enough and how not everyone is alike . No doubt you are going to tell me that with your supremely open mind, you have met lots of ‘great’ Chinese people. But I bet all the ‘great’ people you know are simply monied Chinese people who have escaped the grasp of a repressive system through their parents wealth. I bet you met them in a rich Chinese city. In fact, they are probably pretty Westernised. Maybe you go to M1nt with them.
I should make clear; this is not racism. I just only hang around with people I like. I have non-Western friends including Asians, just not from the mainland, that’s all.
LoL, no, actually I’m just going to say that for all your arrogant “intellectualism” you completely missed the point of this post, and instead jumped to preconceived conclusions. Congratulations, you made the same mistake as stuart.
Well if that’s true, your blog is even more pointless than I first thought.
LoL! Awww, you sound bitter! How cute!
P.S. I’m sorry you feel the CNR blog has to bash foreigners to have a point.
I must say Kai, it’s amazing how many people have ‘missed your point’.
So you weren’t saying that people SHOULD have Chinese FRIENDS. You were saying that IF you CAME to China to MAKE Chinese friends perhaps you should RECONSIDER your current position.
Well, I’m not saying that you write bland blogs that fail to address big issues or are deliberately misleading and trollish in their nature. I’m just saying that IF you DID write this blog in order show INTERESTING ideas, perhaps you should RECONSIDER the content.
[Note from Editor: Less trolling, more "productive conversationalist" please.]
[Note from Editor: Don't be silly, Asis. Again, less trolling and more living.]
I found the article interesting on several levels. I came to China 7 years ago to ‘waste’ a year of my life. Now my [adult] children have issues because I don’t go home on a regular basis.
Many happy accidents in China changed my life. My first school allowed a boy to rent my spare room, and within 2 months I had 2 others sleeping on the floor. They came to visit and never went home.
They invited me into their homes and today I am still a friend of the family. One day at lunch at ‘grandma’s’ house I was too busy talking to think about my manners, and got up from the table and served myself some rice. The family cracked up laughing – why? – because they saw that I finally felt like part of the family.
Divorce can sometimes sour every relationship you ever had, and make your life a misery. When you change countries, the ex has no power over you, your friends or your associates, so you can be free to live life again. I discovered a new lease on life in China.
I could have cared less about China when I first came here. Now I live in fear of having one day to go home. This last year I have been surrounded by foreigners. It was novel at first, but that has truly worn off.
I have seen the best and worst of my home country and of China. The problems are rather the same, because people are ultimately the same. Those who like to bitch about everything you do and say will bitch whether they are Chinese or not!
In China I finally saw that a friend is a friend – is a friend – is a friend, for the friendship is real – not conditional.
As for the attitudes of both Chinese and Westerners toward Western Men travelling around with young Asian women; I have witnessed it first hand. The thing is though, that the young Asian Lady I am frequently seen with is neither my girlfriend, nor Chinese. She is a foreign teacher! People make her life hell!
There are two things I particularly hate in China. The first is not being able to simply take a meditative walk. (We all know that is impossible for a foreigner). The other, is the bad and often drunken behaviour of foreigners. I am judged by what they do! It is just an extra burden to being judged for my white skin. {I also don’t like drinking with Chinese cause I am a ‘two pot screamer’}
When two people are open to friendship, friendship is always possible. But first comes openess to the idea. And yeah! You have to be able to spot the users (of every denomination.)
Must you be friends with Chinese? Must you be friends with Foreigners? Who cares! Be Happy either way! Life is too short to worry about what people think!
I am an ethnic Chinese grew up in Malaysia. I speak Mandarin and Cantonese. Somehow, when I was in China, I also mixed with expats or my Malaysian fellows.
I felt more at home in the U.S.
Perhaps the “foreigners” are racists and are only in China to make money. They don’t care about making friends with the Chinese People because they feel the Chinese are beneath them in every way possible on the evolutionary scale. However, they will jump head first into trying to seduce Chinese Women and brag about it to their “expat friends” in the most degrading way for the Chinese Woman. Usually about how he can seduce a perfect 10, Chinese Girl, even though he is a perfect zero, guy in his own country. In addition, they talk about Chinese food constantly as if it’s a horror movie, and then thank God, Mac Donalds, KFC, and Pizza Hut have saved them from the beast.
Heavy words, some true, some not…go easy with Expats, especially men, as so many Chinese girls throw themselves into ‘foreigners’ beds…
If you are heartbroken or refused by a white guy, stop criticizing and turn your head around and let Chinese buddy conquer your heart.
Good luck!
Whoa whoa, while that’s bound to be true for some “foreigners”, I wouldn’t be hasty to categorize all of them that way. I personally like to think that MOST foreigners, however unconsciously ethnocentric as they can often be, aren’t actually that out and out evil.
Quote: “I personally like to think that MOST foreigners, however unconsciously ethnocentric as they can often be….. How do you define Ethnocentric? Let’s see. I am Australian, so Ethnocentric means – Australian ethnicity? – Aboriginal? My family members are Australians. My grandparents came from 3 different countries. My cousins, in-laws and grandchildren have ethnicities that include: Chinese, Japanese, Vietnamese, Thai, Philippine, Indian (Continent) Aboriginal (Australian), Russian, German, Italian… apologies if I have forgotten someone. So what does it mean to be ‘ethnocentric?’ as a foreigner? People from USA, Canada, Australia, New Zealand are probably the least ‘ethnocentric’ because they don’t belong to just one ethnicity. The Chinese and most of the rest of the world do. Now as for … “[they - the ethnocentric foreigners] aren’t actually that out and out evil”… well on that score, I would personally disagree…heheh… I generally don’t like foreigners.
i agree with this.
There are hundreds of countries in this world, thousands of different languages and cultures in this world that we’re living in. Based on this fact, It is clear that not every people in this world can accept another country’s cultures, tradition, way of thinking and maybe even lifestyle so easily. So, it depend on every individual whether they want to keep an open mind to accept other’s culture or maybe even willing to “blend” with others.
What about the language barrier?
It takes at least a year or two of intensive study before you can learn Chinese well enough to bond with someone on the type of level that you’re talking about.
A lot of the Chinese that have tried to be “friends” with me just wanted to practice their English.
Wow, it doesn’t take that long to get into the sack with someone. Funny how that works.
P.S. – Don’t worry, terrell, I know what you’re talking about. My post isn’t really about whether one should or shouldn’t make local Chinese friends. I’m just saying those with the desire to do so will find ways to overcome all barriers, including language.
I’ve a friend who lives in the south of Beijing where there are no other foreigners. Well, she sees one on the street maybe twice a month. As she’s not the hermit type, she has no choice but to make Chinese friends.
She knows many of the locals, the 理发 folks will often use her washing machine and give her free hair treatments. But she has still been unsuccessful at making a “real meaningful friend.” The girls are there to go shopping or eat hotpot, but when she wants someone to talk to, they’re too busy. The boys say they’ll text her when they’re getting together, but they never do and she has to call them.
Part of it is definitely the language barrier – she’s been here less than a year. But another part is that it’s just damn hard. It’s hard enough to make “real meaningful friends” in one’s own country, much less as a foreigner in China.
Oh and in regards to your original question:
“Is there an objective reason expats or foreigners should strive to make real meaningful friendships with local Chinese while they’re in China?”
Friendships serve to fulfill your needs for companionship and happiness.
In that sense, there is no objective reason for your real meaningful friends to be of one ethnicity or another.
Right, therefore if you make local Chinese friends, it is because you want local Chinese friends.
Yes, Terrel. Language barrier will always be there, it’s the same in every country whereever you go. But maybe in this case, China is a bit “special” since its kinda hard to find decent English speakers in here. I understand your point here, since I myself have lived in China for more than a year and i felt all of those difficulties myself.
I have a bit of a suggestion here, maybe you change a bit of your thinking here: Maybe they want to practice their English, because they want to be friend with you :)
Remember “The biggest barrier is not the language, its all in your heart.”
“I have a bit of a suggestion here, maybe you change a bit of your thinking here: Maybe they want to practice their English, because they want to be friend with you.”
But why do they want to be friends with me? What do they know about me beyond that I’m a foreigner? Nothing.
I have just as big an objection to making friends with someone BECAUSE they’re a foreigner as to making friends with someone BECAUSE they’re Chinese.
Hahaha I think don’t think you need to be so stiff about that man! Yes, they don’t know anything about you beside the fact that you’re a foreigner. But its the same with the first time you meet your friends, and i mean any friend that you have now. What do you know about him/her beyond that he/she is your fellow countryman? or maybe your classmate? nothing right?
Why they want to be friend with you? Maybe you’re nice and kind to them? or you’re handsome? or funny? I don’t know hahaha. Perhaps you can ask your best friend the same question? I think it always great to make new friends despite all of the differences that exist.
“Right, therefore if you make local Chinese friends, it is because you want local Chinese friends.”
I disagree. If you make local Chinese friends, it’s because they’re able to fulfill those needs of companionship and happiness, not necessarily because they’re local Chinese.
I think we’re thinking on different wavelengths. If there’s a language barrier, or a cultural barrier, whatever, yet you still choose to find and make a local Chinese friend, there is an element of you choosing to do so. It is of you willing to overcome those barriers because you find an intrinsic appeal to having a local Chinese friend, whether it is because you find them fascinating or because you genuinely want to expose yourself to the very differences between you that make it actually harder for you two to discern whether or not the other fulfills your needs of companionship and happiness. Sometimes we find friends to fulfill our need of diversity and challenge, our need to expand our horizons and learn new things. So, if you make local Chinese friends, it is because you want local Chinese friends, for whatever reason.
I fully agree with the author and whilst in China I always had Chinese friends and was socializing with locals a lot, more than any other foreigner I knew at the time. My friends were very reliable and sound guys!
However it is not always easy – there are Chinese that are suitable as a mate and some that are not, actually – many are not. Unfortunately many Chinese guys – and girls too for that matter – just want to be your friend to get something off you, may it be learning English, free drinks, get more social contact or business opportunities, I even met some Chinese guys that were actually gay and keen on foreigners.
So I fully support your idea, and I myself did just that when I was in China. But foreigners need to develop a feeling for the locals and find out who to trust and who not. This is not always easy.
I have lived in China for 5 years and have a Chinese wife. To be honest I have never made a good, sincere Chinese friend. I have often wondered about this and had many theories about it, from culture and language issues to the fact I usually do not have a lot of friends anyway, even back in the states. Typically a handfull. My close friends here in China have all been foreigners, Americans and Australians generally.
One thing I have noticed here is how many “instant” friends I can have, after only meeting or on my first day of teaching classes. These are typically young Chinese men who see me as their new friend and want to buy me lunch and have me drink with them and give them my phone number and MSN or QQ number. I tend to politely shy away from these invitations as they are obviously superficial and represent “empire building” on the new and persistent friend’s part. For me making a good and close friend is a process that will take some time. Most real friends do not push you into friendship immediately. They have an idiom in China: mei you mian fei da wu can. There is no free lunch. The same way some foreigners have a handy Chinese friend to them bargain at the market (I have had foreigners ask my wife to come shopping with them so them can get a good bargain… I decline on her behalf) some Chinese want a handy foreign friend to rewrite their exam paper (and the exam papers of their six friends).
Friendship in China become a rare thing sometimes for myself and I wish I had more real friends, both Chinese and foreign.
“They have an idiom in China: mei you mian fei da wu can. There is no free lunch. ”
Are you really sure this is a Chinese idiom? ;-)
Please check http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/TANSTAAFL
Well, the meaning you learned from Chinese people you met is slightly different than its original meaning. But the sentence is definitely from the West.
Well I do not think I made the claim the earliest origins of the idiom originated in China. I said they have in idiom “in” China and not an idiom “from” China. It is one that is used and understood here and I am not sure if the origins add or take away from what I tried to say. There are certainly similarities in idioms from one culture to another. Another idiom in (not necessarily from) is yi shi er niao, that not does of course translate the same as, word for word, but is similar to the Western idiom “to kill two birds with one stone”. I do not know if it matters which one came first in the time line of history so long as the point is understood.
Many people would want to make chinese friends and talk to them but as you yourself have mentioned there could be a lot of excuses and exception here are some of them which you might agree or disagree.
Coming to a foreign country could be of his own interest as backpacker or deputed person from a MNC like me. Both of which are relative to money, tradition and new experience.
When the person comes to this amazing country people do welcome him more gracefully and kindly probably which you would never get in other countries. Here the people understand that Language is a main barrier and because of that they tend to shy away from people or don’t get along (even if we try) to join us for many occasions, so as a expat you would not want to disturb him by inviting him or calling him very often.
So you find many expats with more expats so thats the simple reason. The other reason is after a long day work we need to sit and relax and then have dinner late but chinese culture is have dinner at 6 PM……so where is the time to socialize? Lunch or dinner is very good event for socializing…..This is one of my concern but many may not agree…..even my wife disagrees to this.
Of course we all need friends here:)
I’m kind of late jumping on the bandwagon but I currently live in China, Guangzhou, and I think you may be right. I’ve been here for a little less than a year and, honestly, I find it difficult to integrate into this society – not because I don’t want to but because they make it difficult. I think there is a lot to be learned from the Chinese as there are many things in their culture to recommend but I don’t feel the same level of acceptance from them. You’ll always just be the foreigner.
For instance, when I go out with someone I’ll make plans with that one person and they’ll always bring friends or family members along and it’s clearly just a “let’s practice our English with the American” session. I don’t need that from my “friends.” Additionally, I don’t feel that I can speak as freely with them as I can with other ex-pats because there are so many topics that are off limits. When google,was banned a couple of months ago along with Facebook, twitter and hotmail, I kind of brought it up with Chinese people but they were just like “the government must have their reasons” and that was that. I’m interested in politics and how it influences culture in all countries but I can’t share that interest with them and, moreover, I have to really watch what I say. That is not a comfortable situation to be in.
When I first got here, I made a real effort to make Chinese friends, to immerse myself in Chinese culture (I do have a couple of Chinese people who I consider friends and have every intention of staying in touch with when I leave) but, at this point, I’m not so bothered about doing that. If I meet cool people, that’s great. If I don’t, that’s ok too. I’m not planning on staying here for more than another year and that is just to work on my language skills. When I remember China, I won’t remember the Chinese so much as I’ll remember the other ex-pats from all over the world I came into contact and made friends with. That was not my intention but that is the way that it has gone and I feel that it’s largely because of the Chinese mentality and not mine.
I think the expression, “familiarity breeds contempt,” pretty much describes why many expat don’t develop close ties with mainland Chinese.
The more you get to know them, the less respect you have for them. Can’t build friendship on no respect.
The thing is, it´s always easier to conversate with Chinese in their own language (at least I think so). I mean, first of all it´s the language barrier of course: If they don´t speak well English, then you naturally have to speak in Chinese with them. But then there´s the thing, that they speak about so much more things when they speak in their own language. Well, you can´t talk to everybody about Tibet/Taiwan,…, but with those people I consider good friends, I always could touch those sensitive topics, without any concern they would take it as an offense. I really believe, to speak with my friends in Chinese already gives me kind of a jump-start on the trust level. (That´s just an assumption made on my experience, I might be wrong …)
The thing is, it´s always easier to conversate with Chinese in their own language (at least I think so). I mean, first of all it´s the language barrier of course: If they don´t speak well English, then you naturally have to speak in Chinese with them. But then there´s the thing, that they speak about so much more things when they speak in their own language. Well, you can´t talk to everybody about Tibet/Taiwan,…, but with those people I consider good friends, I always could touch those sensitive topics, without any concern they would take it as an offense. I really believe, to speak with my friends in Chinese already gives me kind of a jump-start on the trust level. (That´s just an assumption based on my experience, I might be wrong …)
sorry, doublepost. (btw, my comment is definitely not a response to wally, but the person above) ^^
Haha… perhaps you should open an English class to make hack of money out of those guys.
I am a foreigner living in China. I believe that I am an exception, because I do have quite a lot of real Chinese friends. I am in a good position to make Chinese friends, because I study in a university campus where there are not very many Westeners.
I think it’s true that most foreigners in China don’t have real Chinese friends, and I think it’s a pity. I am not accusing anyone, of course the Chinese abroad tend to do the same.
Personally I find that I get on well with the Chinese, but still I realize that going out with Chinese people does require more effort than going out with other Westeners, and you have to accept that your jokes won’t always be understood, and the topics you like to talk about won’t always be considered interesting.
However, I still think that expats should at least try to go out with Chinese people, especially if they have come to China “just for the experience”. If you don’t have Chinese friends, what are you experiencing? And what will you understand about China? Almost nothing, trust me.
i love all chinese
I actually find it’s not hard to make real friends here, if you want to. Actually that is one of the best parts of China, in my opinion. Speaking Chinese is really important, otherwise you limit yourself to people who can only speak English. It really helps to have a common interest too, for example, I love basketball and so do a lot of people in China. Without common interests it’s a lot harder.