“Nanjing! Nanjing!“ (aka “City of Life and Death“) is a new movie by Chinese director Lu Chuan about the Nanjing Massacre that occurred when Japanese forces overran the then-capital of China in World War II. If you’re a China basher, you might say it is “yet another” movie about the Nanjing Massacre, evidencing how the Chinese simply refuse to let go of their persistent preoccupation with how the Japanese devils once humiliated their great nation and deeply scarred their people. Either way, it is a movie I strongly recommend you watch, even if it is the edited and cut version being shown in China.
Preceding the movie’s opening, many jaded expats and foreigners were quick to bemoan the possibility of “yet another” propaganda piece timed to whip up nationalist indignation and fervor, ever so coincidentally timed for the 60th anniversary of Communist China. Suggestions that China make a film about the atrocities it committed on itself rained from the peanut gallery. One recommendation: “Tiananmen! Tiananmen!” Zing, right?
What about the Chinese themselves? What did they think? chinaSMACK, as usual, translated some mainland Chinese netizen comments, and the WSJ’s China Journal also translated uh…five. Notable were the nationalistic comments of those who were rather indignant that the movie dared to have a sympathetic Japanese character in “Nanjing! Nanjing”, as if the existence of a single conflicted and remorseful human on the Japanese side amounts to making excuses for the Japanese:
Japan still has not come out to apologize, yet we Chinese have already explained come out expressing our guilt for making this film, what kind of bullshit logic is that! In order to achieve doing something different, they are joking around with historical facts. Listen to the reactions [to the film] of the only surviving comfort woman of the Nanjing Massacre, “At the time, the sights were much more terrifying than those shown in the movie, I have never met a Japanese person that has found their conscience like those in the movie.” Luchuan [the director], 300,000 Nanjing souls will not forgive you, you modern Chinese traitor, for covering up the Nanjing Massacre for the Japanese!
That bloody and tearful bitter history of the Chinese nation, as Chinese of a later generation, we must never forget nor should we forget. Speaking of forgiveness, some things cannot be forgiven. Compassion for the enemy is cruelty to ourselves.
I am extremely angry after watching the movie. It sees the war merely from the perspective of Japanese soldier–focusing on his personal experience and feelings about the massacre…It’s not a movie for patriotic education, but a Japanese movie shot by Chinese director… The Nanjing Massacre was not war, but a brutal crime against international law. So if the movie doesn’t disclose and denounce the crime in this light, I don’t think it’s appropriate from any other angle.
Heh, international law. That’s funny.
Also notable were the comments of those who seemed to be imploring their fellow Chinese to not be afraid of watching this movie and instead bravely face their painful history, you know, as if the Chinese as a society has been repressing this traumatic memory and not incessantly sprinkling reminders of it throughout the education system and popular media. Quite a few expats must’ve chocked on their disbelief, scoffing at the disingenuous notion that any Chinese actually fear facing the horrifying truth of how evil those evil Japanese devils really were when it seemed to them that they routinely relish slathering themselves in it.
Only by facing history can tragedy not be repeated. After so many years, how many people can clearly know the truth of what happened during the war against Japanese aggression?
Strongly ding this up. We Chinese have too strong imaginations, always taking everything and thinking about them in our own subjective ways, often overlooking the truth. We always want other people to face history, yet we ourselves instead are always and ceaselessly avoiding it. Those media should stop talking about Red Cliff all day and give this movie some hype. If this movie does not become China’s most popular/successful movie, then that would be our sorrow/tragedy.
I went to the premiere of the movie, and I think it’s indeed a great movie. If we avoid mentioning the topic simply because it’s painful, who will remember the disaster and learn from it?
Lu Chuan’s “Nanjing! Nanjing!” succeeds largely for the same reasons Feng Xiaogang’s 2007 “Assembly” succeeded: Focusing on the human stories. Both movies had riveting action sequences that were criticized as evidence of the films’ commercialization of historical subject matter to the detriment of, I dunno, teaching some obvious moral lesson about the evil Japanese to the masses. However, the bulk of both movies were about the personal trials and tribulations of its characters as they sought to fight for their country, survive, save those they cared for, or come to terms with the horrors they witnessed or carried out in the excesse of war. Of course, whereas “Assembly’ was mainly a narrative about a single soldier’s survivor guilt, “Nanjing! Nanjing!” is definitely as much about the gruesome barbarity as it was about the victims who suffered them. Accordingly, and in arguable contrast to “Assembly”, it includes scene after scene of the madness that enveloped these poor souls in Nanjing.
Despite the mainland version having cut out certain more graphic scenes, so as not to offend the fragile sensibilities of the innocent mainland audiences, what I saw was plenty to ensure that I will never forget just how many inhuman ways of abuse and death were employed by the Japanese imperial army during their rampage across China. It isn’t going to make me suddenly eschew all common sense and vociferously hate all modern Japanese for the ills of their ancestors, but I will forever emotionally remember — for lack of a better expression — just how fucked up people can be given the right circumstances.
However, these scenes of brutality, however shocking or illuminating they might be, are not going to connect “Nanjing! Nanjing!” to its audience. Rather, it will be the numerous scenes of complete and utter humanity that offers audiences a precious opportunity to better understand both others, themselves, and what we’re all capable of. These include the scenes of cowardice and bravery, defiance and resignation, self-preservation and self-sacrifice. They include the supplication for survival of a portly Shanghai husband and father, the helplessness of a compassionate German forced to give up his charges, and yes, the small things a bewildered Japanese soldier does or doesn’t do. It is this movie’s ability to give those viewers with minds and hearts open enough the opportunity to identify with each of these characters and the scope of gritty emotions they represent that makes “Nanjing! Nanjing!” a Chinese movie worthy of being compared to a spiritual predecessor, “Schindler’s List.”
For the foreigners, do not dismiss “Nanjing! Nanjing!” as a Chinese propaganda film. For the Chinese hyper-nationalists, do not denounce it for not being one. Set aside your preconceived biases and watch the film for what it was meant to be: A tale of the humanity found amongst inhumanity. Go watch it.
In case you’re wondering, my MAN-card did indeed check itself out for most of the movie. I got pretty chocked up even from the early battle scenes, and was shamelessly wiping streams of tears off my face throughout 3/4ths of the film. “Assembly” one-upped “Nanjing! Nanjing!” in the tear-jerk department by having me outright bawling for the second half of the movie. Yeah…what can I say? I’ve got a big heart of gold.
So, what did YOU think of the movie, “Nanjing! Nanjing!”?
Kai Pan说得好
As usual, typical PRC anti-Japanese war movie. Japanese bad, bad, bad. Chinese good, good, good.
World War II ended over 60 yrs. ago, when will they make a film about the “cultural revolution”?
Richard, You won’t feel the pain unless you are in someone else’s shoes.
How many movies on Holocaust released by Hollywood each year? If we scream “too many”, we would be condemned for being anti-Semitic, wouldn’t we?
Haitao
Also there are plenty of movies about the Cultural Revolution, although most of them are banned in China. For a good, and I think very honest look at modern Chinese history through the eyes of one family, check out Zhang Yimou’s To Live.
You clearly…
1) Didn’t see the movie.
2) Didn’t read the post.
3) are a troll
We still see those Nazi Germany movies here today like Valkyrie. How about seeing a movie about what US did in the Korean war?
as usual richard is just another idiot on the street writing before even using his brain. You see American good goood goooood and Germany bad baaad baaaaad movie every year from hollywood. Let me reuse ur rhetoric: World War II ended over 60yrs ago, when will the Japs finally admit that they commited one of the worst human genicide in the history of mankind? When will America make films about their failure in the Vietnam war or Korean war?
“When will America make films about their failure in the Vietnam war”
I think that question constitutes an own goal, unless the last time you saw a Hollywood movie was in the late seventies. Either that or you were drunk at time of writing.
Nice try stuart, please give us an example of a recent Hollywood film focused on America’s mistake in Vietnam or Korea instead of all the heroic/brave Mel Gibson and other mega star blah blah blah killing countless Vietnamese to make American soldiers look like the victims. Never admitting that they were wrong to even set foot in Vietnam in the first place. Diverting wrong doings to sympathy with the dying soldiers. This is exactly what the Japanese films always do. Depicting themselves as the victims of WWII when they were the aggressor.
If you only think Chinese people ‘loves’ to hate Japan, u are shorted sighted and only got half the picture. People in South Korea are even more anti-japanese, far beyond the anti-jap feelings in China. They not only massacred and raped people in one city (China) but did the same thing in their entire country for a much longer period. Now u won’t call korean haters do u? because u are biased again China, it ‘s obvious in ur rhetoric
Please allow me to rape ur wife and ur daugher, kill ur brother and ur parents and u must forgive me in 60years, otherwise u’ll be labeled as a hater.
Jerry,
The last movie I saw that focused on America’s mistake in Vietnam was Frost/Nixon. I believe it was a pretty popular movie too. Jerry, I don’t think your American movie argument is going to work well in this case.
You are, however, right that it isn’t only Chinese people who “love” to hate Japan. We don’t, however, know whether or not the same people who criticize the Chinese also criticize the Koreans or other people likewise harboring often irrational and unfair prejudices against modern Japanese.
Also another point Stuart, we forgive Germany for what they did in WWII against humanity because they admitted their wrong doing and do not revere or worship the old Nazi regime. So forgiveness is granted when apology is made.
On the other hand, Japan changes their textbook, erasing human genocide and biological weapon research in China using live Chinese. Educate the young that their people is the true victim in WWII. They also educate young Japanese that, they invaded Korea and China to “help” its Asian neighbors resisting Western aggression. Their main focus on human suffering in WWII is, which American dropped atomic bombs on them. Japanese prime ministers goes to temple to worship WWII era leaders. Still in Japan today, people think they are the super race in Asia better than anyone else.
Stuart, u lack the even the most simple common sense. There is no forgiveness from Chinese and Korean people when Japan never publicly apologized for anything in 60 years. My advice to you is don’t try to talk about this sensitive issue when u don’t even know what’s going on.
Jerry,
You’re right that Germany has done far more in ways of apologizing for WW2 than the Japanese. However, I think you should do some more research into the extent of Japanese denial of WW2. For example, the revisionist textbook issue has gotten a lot of media attention but in reality, there is no widespread use of that textbook and the support for its adoption is limited to a small minority in Japan. Like most countries, there are extreme elements in Japan and no one is denying them. What is important is acknowledging their existence but not misrepresenting them as the majority.
I think Japan and especially some of its government representatives can often be more sensitive to the issue of WW2 with the Chinese (such as avoiding the Yasukuni Shrine, which is something the new leadership is proclaiming to do) but I disagree with the characterization that Japanese people overall somehow deny their nation’s culpability in WW2.
As for whether the Japanese feel superior to the Chinese…well, as distasteful as that is in principle for any people, I don’t find it difficult to understand. The Chinese feel themselves superior to many other nationalities and races themselves. Everyone would do well to humble themselves a notch or two.
Culturally speaking, apologising is a lot easier for Europeans than east Asians in my experience; it’s perceived more as a gesture of remembrance or goodwill than a humiliating kowtow to the demands of another nation.
Which brings us to an important point. It’s more difficult for Japan to acknowledge the past when Koreans, Chinese, and other regional sufferers keep DEMANDING reparations and apologies for the crimes of people who have long since shuffled off their mortal coils.
China (and possibly her neighbours too) deliberately hype animosity towards Japan via the well worn ‘they deny their history’ line. This serves a dual purpose. One is the promotion of unity through nationalism, and the other is the strategic use of guilt as a bargaining chip.
Alas, both purposes lack integrity because the true percentage of Japanese that subscribe to a revisionist view of their history is tiny, whereas the proportion of Chinese intoxicated with ideas of an aggressive, dishonest, and unapologetic Japan is, I confidently predict, a majority.
Good, now I can see how u try to spin the issue by searching for more excuses to excuse Japan. This time it’s culture. So people should easily forget the past because “culturally” speaking Japanese is more stubborn to admit its wrong doings so we must be quiet because now and we must respect their culture because they have their pride. It is this very culture that you are speaking of, that led to the WWII in Asia. It is also this culture that you speak of, that led to Nanjing massacre. I think Japanese culture is easily understood now by all the victim countries of WWII in Asia.
Since u now drag this issue to culture. Yes it’s because of long history and culture of China, that Chinese don’t forget the past easily. How could they, when China was in turmoil for almost the past 2 centuries, invaded by all kinds of foreign powers not to mention the ultimate destruction by the Japanese. If Japan wasn’t there, then the Communist wouldn’t had the chance in that chaotic China to come to power, would they? How dare u bring up culture, when Chinese culture was traumatized for 3-4 generation of people. Your argument exposes your Japanese sympathy. Keep exposing yourself Mr. Stuart!
This is the funniest thing I’ve read all day.
Kai Pan, i find it surprising that you think it’s funny. Stuart is trying to justify: Culturally, we should give Japan a break, because again, “culturally” speaking, they just won’t do a thing such as apologize. So just tell Chinese victims to forget it, it’s not gonna happen! I simply find this reasoning beyond my belief.
It’s not going to work, because “culturally” speaking, China and other Asian countries won’t easily forget what was done to them. Culture in this case can be applied to both sides. Is not a valid reasoning to defend Japan.
“Mr. Stuart! This is the funniest thing I’ve read all day.”
Sounds like I need to work on my delivery, but I’m glad I was able to bring a little light to your day.
““culturally” speaking, they just won’t do a thing such as apologize.”
Actually, Jerry, I’m fairly certain they’ve apologised on a number of occasions, if not in quite the publicly humiliating way that Beijing would prefer. But it’s never good enough for China, who really give the impression they’d like to rub Japan’s nose in the dirt. Now why is that?
Re: “Mr. Stuart!”
Jerry, I quoted this as funny because someone angrily addressing stuart as “Mr. Stuart” is funny. I wasn’t commenting about the rest of your reply to him.
Stuart, you didn’t bring a little light to my day, Jerry and his silly address of you did. ;) I just want to make sure you don’t steal credit for his outburst.
Re: “culturally”
Jerry, I’m not sure if stuart is going that far with or standing so firmly behind that argument as you portray him to be. I’m not sure he’s trying to “justify” anything as he is musing about one possible reason for the differences between Japan and Germany. You offered reasons for why you think the Japanese have not apologized to the extent you want from them, and stuart offered another reason for why he thinks they may not apologize to the extent he thinks you (or Chinese people overall) want.
Why don’t you guys actually go about addressing each other’s points instead of you trying to prove that he is a Japanese apologist and him trying to prove that you’re a fenqing? You’ve made several allegations that he (and I) have argued to be exaggerated. Do you recognize that? Do you recognize that the revisionist Japanese textbook controversy is overblown? Do you recognize that the vast majority of Japanese acknowledge their nation’s culpability for their crimes in WW2? Do you want to elaborate on just what it is you think Japan ought to do in order to finally make peace with China and the Japanese? Don’t forget, Mao unilaterally let Japan off the hook for WW2 in exchange for diplomatic relations. Advance the discussion, don’t make the mistake (that I admit I sometimes get trapped in) of standing around trying to pigeon-hole each other.
Ok now, let’s be fair. I do get Stuart’s point. Parts of the reason that Chinese government made this film are to rack up hate and stir up national pride to the benefit of CCP and its support. That is CCP’s intention. There is no argument in that. I also acknowledge that textbook revisionist in Japan is a minority, Nanjing massacre deniers are also a minority in Japan. My point is that, it’s also only a handful of powerful leaders in the CCP, which is a minority, who envisioned this film as a propaganda for their political gain, not the Chinese people.
You have to understand, whether you are a Chinese affiliated with the CCP or just a regular citizen, everyone’s family 1-2 generations ago, suffered directly or indirectly by the hands of the Japanese. People were literally forced to join CCP because their family members were killed and the KMT government had abandoned them. It’s only natural that every generation of CCP members are on the frontier of anti-jap. because CCP families suffered the most. So the movie is both for political purpose and personal remembrance of the dead. Let me re-enforce my point. Your labeling of Chinese haters is only a minority. Stuart, it’s obvious that you didn’t watch the film. You accuse Chinese of stirring up national pride instead of human compassion. I can tell you right now, I do not pride myself watching a machine gun mow down 3 hundred Chinese in front of me. I do not pride myself watching women raped on the street. Maybe for you but not me.
Stuart, you are also wrong to use CCP’s political agenda to generalize that ALL Chinese people are haters. Your anti-CCP mind set has also transformed you into a anti-China in general and quick to point out “Chinese love to hate”. My grandmother was born in 1937 and grew up in Beijing while under Japanese occupation. One of the most vivid story she told me was the number of hats on the street facing down. She asked her aunt why were there random hats laying on the street facing down while no one cared to pick them up. So one day she tried to pick one up and her aunt stopped her immediately. Apparently, under each hat is a Chinese person buried alive or dead with only the head left above the ground. People used their hat to cover them, but everyone was too afraid to dig them out for proper burial, because Japanese solider may come after them too. So let me ask you Stuart, if hundreds and hundreds of horrific stories like the one above were passed down in your family, told you in person, by your grandparents and then ur parents. WILL YOU FORGET? Now, am not so sure, maybe u will. My grandmother was 5 and she would never forget, so would I. I can guarantee you, Chinese people unlike Americans who now seemed to have already forgot what happend on Sept.11, will always remember what happened in that city and make sure it will never happen again on Chinese soil, reguardless of what a person like you say, who has never been in other people’s shoe before.
“You accuse Chinese of stirring up national pride instead of human compassion.”
Broadly speaking, yes, but not in relation to the film (which I haven’t seen). And it’s the CCP rather than ‘the Chinese’ I hold responsible for that.
“I can tell you right now, I do not pride myself watching a machine gun mow down 3 hundred Chinese in front of me. I do not pride myself watching women raped on the street. Maybe for you but not me.”
Of course I don’t either, Jerry.
The point is you need to feel the same way about watching hundreds of Japanese being slaughtered as you do about watching Chinese being massacred. Nationalistic feelings and cultivated resentments are at odds with that most fundamental humanistic condition. And I feel Chinese people, generally speaking, have been led a long way from that civilised path. And no, they’re not the only ones.
Jerry,
Actually, there is, at least possibly from me. I’m not sure I fully agree that 1) the Chinese government “made” this film and 2) that so much of the reason was to stir up nationalism in support of the CCP. I thought this was a privately-made film, albeit subjected to the same censorship and approval all films shown in China as subject to.
I understand (and agree with) this point, but I don’t think it is clear what you’re responding to in this particular discussion thread. Are you referring to things stuart has said elsewhere?
I understand.
I don’t agree with this characterization of why people were “literally forced” to join the CCP.
You’re making some very bold statements here that I don’t consider historically accurate or reasonably credible.
I saw the movie as remembering a historical tragedy first and foremost, with any political significance being attached by individual viewers themselves. I also thought the movie was quite fair in presenting a sympathetic Japanese character.
I take it you’re now speaking to stuart instead of me? I think the number of Chinese who genuinely and thoroughly despise the Japanese and anything that has anything to do with them to be a minority. However, I think there is a substantial amount of Chinese people who quite rationally aren’t entirely prejudiced against the Japanese in everything but are still openly resentful of what happened. The latter group are sometimes exaggerated into the former group based on what they say despite what they actually rationally think or do.
“I think the number of Chinese who genuinely and thoroughly despise the Japanese and anything that has anything to do with them to be a minority.”
I’m not so sure, Kai.
On the evidence of my years in Luoyang I would say you’re way off. Then again, on the basis of the attitudes I encountered while working in Xiamen I would agree. North – south divide?
stuart,
Given what I know, I find it difficult to argue them being a majority in China. Not sure about a north-south divide, but I definitely grant that there are differences in concentration between different places.
Your guilt causes you to personalize the film — I doubt anyone involved with the movie know you even exist — and therefore turn around and personally attack China and Chinese.
Instead of being a knee-jerk, try this: slow down and think; admit the fact that Japan did what it did in Nanking, because it is the fact. Then accept the fact that it should never be forgot, and stop making excuses by blaming those who didn’t do it, or bringing up other instances of atrocities in order to change the subject away from the relevant: the Rape of Nanking by the Japanese.
In short: be intellectually honest, instead of making excuses for the inexcusable.
Until you do that — which is the adult, mature, responsible approach — you will continue to be viewed as being exactly the same as those who committed the crime in the first place: for, why else would you make excuses for it by blaming others in effort to avoid the issue, by talking about other atrocities by others in order to avoid the issue?
Manup, or continue to be seen for that your excuses reveal: a childish whiner falsely claiming to be a victim. A childish finger-pointer exploiting the non-excuse, “They did it too!”
This film, and this thread, are not about the WW II German Nazis. Nor are they about Tienanmen Squre. Nor are they about the “Cultural Revolution”. They are about the Rape of Nanking by Japan. Be mature, responsible adult by sticking to the issue, instead of trying to lie everyone away from it.
“If you’re a China basher, you might say it is “yet another” movie about the Nanjing Massacre, evidencing how the Chinese simply refuse to let go of their persistent preoccupation”
And even if you’re not a China basher. It’s not difficult to reach such a conclusion given the extent to which China ‘loves’ to hate Japan, and their citizen’s capacity to be moved by Japan’s wartime atrocities:
“I got pretty chocked up even from the early battle scenes…”
And I guarantee you were far from the only one.
I think there needs to be more distance between national pride and compassion for human suffering in China. You mentioned Tiananmen, so I’ll oblige you. The “great nation” you spoke of in the first graph needs to allow its tears to flow more liberally, and its film industry the freedom to explore the past with fewer restrictions before the accolade ‘great’ can be meaningfully applied.
Only then can everyone judge such films on their power to move the human spirit unencumbered by the either the effects or perceptions of propaganda.
Dear Stuart,
Re: “great nation”
I get the feeling you’re now actually completely unable to read anything I write without your preconceived notion that I’m some Chinese nationalist. The colored lenses on your nose are so thick that you clearly can’t pick up on sarcasm anymore. That’s really sad.
Sincerely,
Kai
Let me make a response to your comment. First of all, this is not a propaganda film if you have watched it. It is also not hard to find out that it is indeed not a propaganda film after a little research. People criticized the film’s sympathetic portrayal of the Japanese soldier, criticisms of the film on the Internet nearly caused it to be pulled from theaters, only to be saved by the personal support from Li Changchun, a member of the Politburo of the Communist Party of China. So A CCP leader saved a film, that is being objective to both sides.
After seeing the film, you would know that the historical event had nothing to do with the CCP. It is the retelling of the event at ground level with some historical figure such as John Rabe, who himself a Nazi, saved thousands of Chinese civilian.
Also, this is not about national pride. Japan’s reputation in Asia is pretty bad, period. I don’t know if you knew these big hit films in recent time such as Ip Man叶问, Forever Enthralled(梅兰芳, and Fearless(霍元甲) etc. While these films were not directly targeting the war, all of the central characters in them were dramatically affected by the Japanese invasion. Stories in those films reflected how much had happened during that time caused by the Japanese, whether they are personal stories or historical events. Those kinda stories never run out for the film industry considering how much the Japanese did all over the country.
About this film being too graphical. I think Saving Private Ryan changed how a war film must be made to attract viewer and making statements. It is not convincing without showing realism. That’s a movie evolution and basically what people like to watch everywhere. Do not somehow tie this again with the CCP and national pride. It has nothing to do with them.
About the “great nation”. I think the average Joe in China knows that the country is far from “great”. The CCP spreads how great this country is today but again, this film is not about that. I do not believe the notion that people go to watch this movie simply conclude that “OH what a wonderful country we got today!” People may marvel at the progress China had made in recent years, but they know that the CCP is extremely corrupt at some level and it’s a one party dictatorship. But if the country is strong and stable collectively, the majority will stay quiet.
Finally, I agree with you that there should be more freedom granted to the film industry. There should be more freedom in everything in
China. But the entire bashing of this film because it’s CCP approved is baseless and false.
When do you think you might request that the “greater nation” Japan — it is free, a democracy, not “Commie,” therefore doesn’t censor or rewrite depictions of its past — make a factual, truthful film about its past — specifically about the Rape of Nanking?
How about doing that, instead of bashing China — the victim of the crime — in a thread about the Rape of Nanking perpetrated by Japan against China in order to avoid the issue, and the name of the perpetrator of that mass murder: Japan?
“I get the feeling you’re now actually completely unable to read anything I write without your preconceived notion that I’m some Chinese nationalist.”
Utter nonsense. Why so ego-defensive?
I was merely pointing out that a western knee-jerk (which you elude to) along the lines of, “look, China just had another dig at the Japs” is understandable in the context of a film industry hamstrung by a limited number of ‘acceptable’ themes.
You’re being disingenuous, trying to pass off 1/3 of your above comment as all your comment was about. I wasn’t even RESPONDING to that 1/3 because it is obvious throughout my post that I think the western knee-jerk response I alluded to is indeed “understandable.” See paragraph 2 for starters.
Therefore, my reply to you referred to the other 2/3 of your comment that you’re trying to downplay right now. In that 2/3, you go on your typical Foundinchina.com (there, free link) rant about what China must first do “before the accolade ‘great’ can be meaningfully applied.” Why? Because you couldn’t help but take issue with me even writing the word “great” in any association with China:
Holy toledo, man. Look, I understand sarcasm and tone of voice does not always get conveyed clearly in written text over the internet, but in the context of what I was writing? Let’s review:
It was pretty obvious I was poking fun at that line of thinking. Maybe I should’ve added some quotation marks around my obvious sarcastic elements? But really, how you would take my use of “great nation” in that sentence of the first paragraph so seriously as to try educating me on what China needs to do before I can use that word is ridiculous. So yes, I think my response to you that you weren’t able to pick up on my sarcasm was indeed warranted.
If I didn’t understand the western knee-jerk I alluded to, why would I conclude my review with:
Cripes, stuart. “Ego-defensive” is you responding multiple times on my various posts always piping up some defense for the Westerner against some perceived slight against the Westerner you read into my posts. The cause has been the same each time, a failure to read contextually and an oversensitivity to anything that might be interpreted as a negative on Westerners. I take equal jabs at both foreigners and hyper-nationalist Chinese for their preconceived biases in this piece, and you STILL have to come out swinging for the Westerner.
Utterly amazing.
Some are insecure bigots who can’t handle the reality of their hidden dirty laundries, let alone that dirty laundry being exposed. Thus there are Westerners who bash China because they are taught (1) that China is “Commie,” and (2) because they are brainwashed to hate as “Commie” anything that is labeled “Commie” (even if that so labeled isn’t in fact “Commie”).
They do all that because it’s easier than learning and thinking. And they do all that to keep the focus off their own sins — which are hidden from view behind their raciocultural supremacism. So let’s not talk about the US-N. Korean stalemate, becasue that reveals that it wasn’t a victory (and let’s not: that isn’t the topic of this thread). And let’s not talk about the US’s illegal intervention in Vietnam, and its loss there (and let’s not: those are not the rtopic of this thread).
This is, though, relevant to this thread:
Chaing Kia-Shek was the US’s ally — in fact, a puppet of the West. (That he was corrupt goes without saying: he was paid off to act in the interests of the West, even when that was contrary to China’s interests). Nanking was made openly vulnerable to the Japanese slaughter there in part because Kai-Shek withdrew all troops and left it totally undefended.
At the same time, and later, the US’s own WW II propaganda made of him a hero defending China (and “democracy” and “freedom”) against Japan; but made absolutely no mention of other Chinese factions, including Mao, who were ALSO defending China against Japan.
In sum, there are Westerners who adopt the Western view of how wonderful and superior is the West because it’s easier than learning and thinking. And how all other nations are inferior, and some of those are to be hated becasue “Commie”. They have far less problem with nations that have right-wing/fascist regimes, but that might be a topic for a thread other than this, unless one wants to look more closely at the military gov’t of the Kai-Shek faction.
Stuart are you on Twitter? what ID?
@elliottng
Hi Elliot,
I did sign up about a year ago, but I honestly can’t remember if I used my email or my blog as my ID. As a semi-technophobe (although I’m sure it’s not that complicated) I’ve never got into it.
I’ll do some digging and get the ID.
OK, I’m @foundinchina. I see I have 4 followers. Should I be scared?
Stuart,
A careful reading of your post seems to indicate that you did miss the sarcasm in Kai’s post and decided to focus on his “great nation” comment. The comment appears to have been meant as a subtle jab at the Chinese nationalists and yet you seem to take it at face value and interpreted it as it as Kai’s way of glorifying (if you will) China and how the term ‘great’ cannot be applied unless there are fewer restrictions for film makers.
Kai’s point, in which I thought he made painfully clear was that before either side dismisses the film because of their inherent prejudices (the nationalist Chinese posters who crucify the film for not conforming to their expectations of what a film on the Nanjing Massacre “should” be and the foreign expats whom automatically view this as CCP propaganda) one should view the movie based upon it’s merits. This is akin to logical debate in which one must weigh a person’s arguments based upon merit, and not launch ad homimem attacks on the person’s character.
Your comment that only when Chinese film makers become unencumbered by the yoke of the CCP (I’m paraphrasing, not putting words in your mouth) will people be able to judge a film without perceptions of propaganda reflects good, wholesome pragmatism. But still contravenes the principle of logical debate. Evaluate the film after you have seen it, not by it’s association to the CCP was I believe, Kai’s ultimate point.
It is understandable why expats would have reservations, but the point is that they should not dismiss the film entirely. You defend the reason why expats would think the way they do. No one was assaulting them for thinking the way they do. Kai’s greater unspoken point seems to have been “yes, I understand why you might think the way you do and I don’t make judgements, but ignore your preconceived notions and see the film because it is a damn good film that might not be as biased as you think”.
Oh my god, this comment is so beautiful I’m about to cry. It is people like you who reaffirm my faith in humans. Thank you so much.
LOL. No problem Kai. Personally, I wouldn’t cry over this comment but if your man-card feels the need to check out once more…well by all means.
I recall that around 2004 abc showed ‘Saving Private Ryan’ unfiltered and uncensored and some complained that it was nothing more than a propaganda film to bolster support for the Iraq war.
http://money.cnn.com/2004/11/11/news/fortune500/savingpvt_ryan/index.htm
You mean people should judge a film on its merits — and only after having actually seen it — instead of on their preconceptions and prejudices!?
What a novel concept!
As for the objections to the appellation “great nation” being applied to China: there is no question that China is a great nation, in view at very least of the fact that it has been the longest continuous civilization on the planet; it has given the world an enormous wealth of beauty in too many areas to list. It invented and gave the world paper, printing, the compass, and much, much more.
But there are those — bigots and history-illiterates — who absolutely must bash China, and deny its greatness, because, out of its 6,000 years of continuous existence as a civilization, it has been “Commie” for all of 60 years.
This is going to be fun.
“…in view at very least of the fact that it has been the longest continuous civilization on the planet”
I don’t really get that. Did the Egyptians (to name but one) disappear to a distant galaxy for a few centuries? Further, your argument depends on a very loose definition of ‘civilization’.
“It invented and gave the world paper, printing, the compass, and …”
Leaving aside some pretty dubious claims on the part of Chinese ‘historians’, it would be nice if they could one day stop viewing these items as China’s gift to cave-dwellers beyond the Middle Kingdom. It’s all very jingoistic and insecure, don’t you think?
“But there are those … who absolutely must bash China, and deny its greatness…”
Oh, ffs. ‘Greatness’ is not acquired through self-appointment, old sport. Nor is it ever a factual state; it’s mere opinion, although some have considerable difficulty distinguishing between the two.
“… out of its 6,000 years of continuous existence as a civilization”
6000? Back in the day (yesterday, I think) it was only 5000, itself a debatable claim. Explain to me, without resort to questionable numeracy, how the time of the Yuan Dynasty supports your notion of ‘Chinese’ continuity and greatness.
Stuart, after all this time, I come back still finding you spinning around the issues and trying to sound objective.
In your response to JNagarya, instead of giving valid arguments, all you did was digging into his context looking for the little historical inaccuracies, which don’t even matter to the topic. You tried to prove the things he mentioned are not accurate, so what? To me it’s just all empty rhetorics of yours.
Why don’t you just write what you really think about China instead of proving him otherwise? Chinese inventions really means nothing to you. 5000 years of continuous Chinese civilization to you is also nothing but a big number. Greatness means everything to anything, but when it’s used on China, it means nothing to you, and you pull out your little dictionary and starts to define greatness. Thank you professor Stuart!
“But there are those … who absolutely must bash China, and deny its greatness…”
JNagarya is absolutely correct about this statement and it suits you perfectly. You may not be bashing, but I must say that you do it in a very clever way.
Author: stuart
Comment:
This is going to be fun.
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If being an arrogant prig blowing hot air is fun. –
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“…in view at very least of the fact that it has been the longest continuous civilization on the planet”
I don’t really get that.
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Reread it until you do: it’s okay to speak with an accent, but not to read with one.
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Did the Egyptians (to name but one) disappear to a distant galaxy for a few centuries?
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Why not choose the country in which you sit on your butt and pretend to be all-knowing moral exemplar as concerns who needs straightening out by your measure.
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Further, your argument depends on a very loose definition of ‘civilization’.
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I certainly won’t rely on your looser-than-loose definition of the term, in view of the fact that without your smug arrogance you’ld have no spine at all.
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“It invented and gave the world paper, printing, the compass, and …”
Leaving aside some pretty dubious claims on the part of Chinese ‘historians’, it would be nice if they could one day stop viewing these items as China’s gift to cave-dwellers beyond the Middle Kingdom. It’s all very jingoistic and insecure, don’t you think?
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Those “claims” have been affirmed by Western historians who are not Chinese. As for the insecure jingoism: you’ve so far not presented a single refutation of any of my statements — only snide supremacist comments which stand upon no legs whatsoever.
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“But there are those … who absolutely must bash China, and deny its greatness…”
Oh, ffs. ‘Greatness’ is not acquired through self-appointment, old sport.
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You wrote all that wonderful Chinese literature, Mr. Insufferable Snot?
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Nor is it ever a factual state; it’s mere opinion, although some have considerable difficulty distinguishing between the two.
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It is certainly a matter of fact that China’s poetry — and I refer to that not written by your universal red-herring “Commie” — is not merely beautiful but also among the greatest of the human race. I’d refer you to specific but I wouldn’t want it adversely stained by association with such a perfectly accomplished bigot such as you.
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“… out of its 6,000 years of continuous existence as a civilization”
6000? Back in the day (yesterday, I think) it was only 5000, itself a debatable claim.
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Yes, yes, yes: proof by carbon dating, and carbon dating itself, is “debatable” to assholes who not only know it all on earth, but also know more than “God” on every topic.
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Explain to me, without resort to questionable numeracy, how the time of the Yuan Dynasty supports your notion of ‘Chinese’ continuity and greatness.
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How about you reveal your location, and we’ll determine by that “numeracy” whether you are a juvenile telling the rest of the world “how to do it”.
“Did the Egyptians (to name but one) disappear to a distant galaxy for a few centuries?”
Well as a matter of FACT the civilization of Menes and Khufu and Amenhotep have absolutely no – NONE – relationship to the contemporary Arabic Egypt. Even the Copts have no cultural influences from the ancient Egyptians.
And the Arabic folks in Iraq have as much cultural lineage to the Sumerians as the Canadians would to the Mayans.
Is there any cultural linkage between the Indus civilizations of Mahenjo-daro and present day India Hinduism? There is major disagreement that there is none to those that state there is direct lineage.
Chinese civilization? It’s pretty universally agreed that “cultural” aspects found in Shang have a linear line leading to existing Chinese thought and culture.
maybe the china-haters can try to suspend their prejudice for the length of the movie? If they can think out of their skins for that long, they might c that it’s also an anti-war film says that war brings out the best and worst in everyone.
Don’t c just Chinese and Japanese. Think instead of angry Russian soldiers and helpless Berlin civilians in the Allied rush to occupy the city. (Just multiply the atrocities several times for Nanjing).
Feel anything yet?
It seems like we’re going round in circles a bit.
First, humble apologies for the unforgiveable use of ‘elude’ when, as you realise, I meant ‘allude’.
Again, I have to take issue with a few things you’ve said because you’re – how can I put this? – wrong!
“…trying to pass off 1/3 of your above comment as all your comment was about.”
Well, basically, it was. So I can’t see where you’re coming from there.
“it is obvious throughout my post that I think the western knee-jerk response I alluded to is indeed “understandable.” ”
Then why can’t you see that I’m underlining/agreeing with the point? Don’t tell me; you knew I’d say that ;)
“Because you couldn’t help but take issue with me even writing the word “great” in any association with China”
Oh please!!
“I understand sarcasm and tone of voice does not always get conveyed clearly in written text”
Absolutely. So why the fuss? My attempts at dry humour often sail by their targets. Hazard of the job, I’m afraid.
“If I didn’t understand the western knee-jerk…”
It was clear to me that you did. So, again, what the hell?
“…a failure to read contextually and an oversensitivity to anything that might be interpreted as a negative on Westerners.”
I think that’s what you want to believe; and I haven’t ‘come out swinging’ for or against anything. What I have done is express my views on some of the topics raised.
As for my site, it’s obviously China-focused and reflects my concerns for a planet increasingly kowtowing to an unelected, unaccountable, and morally-challenged government. Oftentimes that concern leads to the misperception of a pro-western stance.
“Utterly amazing.”
I’ll take that as a compliment.
My response.
You see, a picture paints a thousand words. Now I understand everything perfectly.
I rather watch a movie that ‘Made me cry like a little girl’ so as described by chinasmut, rather than a movie that made me fall asleep while watching. Some of you China-bashers are just jealous that some Chinese director made some original movie that got rave reviews. This movie wasn’t intended for western audience although many of you think it is. Like any westerns out there care about watching locally produced movies anyways.
As for my site, it’s obviously China-focused and reflects my concerns for a planet increasingly kowtowing to an unelected, unaccountable, and morally-challenged government. Oftentimes that concern leads to the misperception of a pro-western stance.
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Leave the Bushit-Cheney criminal enterprise out of this — then you’ll come nearer to having a moral leg to stand on when it comes to bashing those you are instructed to hate — hate too being immoral.
The US Constitution expressly stipulates which branch of the US gov’t is empowered to resolve election disputes such as that in 2000. That branch is not the UNelected SC; it is the CONGRESS.
That means the SC unconstitutionally usurped that exclusive authority in order to unconstitutionally appoint its preferred candidate as illegitimate “President”. You doubtless embrace that tyranny becasue that regime also (professedly) hated “Commie”-ism.
As concerns elections and Asia: I recall the US’s harping on “self-determination,” and “democratic elections” in Vietnam. Yet those “democratic” elections invariably got whittled down as to number of candidates by “coincidental” assassintations to only the candidate the US supported.
Lesson: instead of dually lying — by omission about the actual nature of the US’s “support” for democracy and freedom (none of the Bushs condemned Saddam’s alleged creation of “mass graves” while he was creating them) — and by commission about nations you are taught to blindly hate — try a dose of truth about the US’s actual conduct behind its rhetoric, even if that does result in your learning to wisely fall silent instead of pushing the self-righteous hypocrisy.
Kai, your bias is evident in your suggestion that only foreigners or expats could be critical or mocking of this film or assume it is propoganda. You degrade both Chinese people and foreigners. Grow up and stop acting as if only foreigners could have a cynical view towards China!
Mike, you’re being silly. Where did i say ONLY foreigners or expats could be critical or mocking of this film? I employed a generalization legitimate because they are the most notable and expected group to do so. It is like referring to Christian fundamentalists with regards to abortion: not every Christian fundamentalist opposes it but enough do for the generalization to be understood. Pointing out exceptions to a rule is you being disingenuous.
Grow up and stop pretending to be stupid.
Kai,
“jaded expats and foreigners were quick to bemoan the possibility of “yet another” propaganda piece”
and
“For the foreigners, do not dismiss “Nanjing! Nanjing!” as a Chinese propaganda film”
Your anology is 100% off. The “foreigner or expat” would seem to be the Christian fundementalist in your analogy. According to your bizarre analogy you are actually assuming all those opposed to abortion are Christian fundementalists; assuming anyone who criticizes China is a foreigner.
Really? Foreigners are the group most critical of China? What planet are you from? If you think the tiny crowd of nut job foreigners who post vehement anti-China crap on places like Chinasmack reflect any sort of representative sentiment or reflect even 1% of the critical-of-China commentary then… what can I say? Just cause youre writing this in English, for foreigners to read, doesn’t mean you should leave out the facts present everyday in Chinese language forums in China, Taiwan, or wherever. The vast majoirty of criticism and boredom with Chinese propoganda are from Chinese people, not foreigners.
You point out the exception and act like it’s the rule! Also you have criticized generalizations in several previous comments on other forums yet use them so liberally here.
You’re making straw man arguments (while employing a few other nasty fallacies). Please try again.
Wrong. When I refer to “jaded expats and foreigners”, I’m clearly not referring those who are not “jaded.” I defined what I was referring to. Don’t play stupid.
Sure, and I gave my arguments for why those generalizations were excessive, inappropriate, or offensive in context of how they were used. You’re trying to do the same, but I disagree with your arguments’ relevance to me, or the logic behind them.
You need a better argument, and one where it shows you actually understand your opponent’s position instead of some imaginary position you’re unfairly trying to pin on them so you have something to criticize.
I came here knowing your positions, the usual quality of your writing, and decent thinking behind most of it. So, I thought I did know your position before I came here, that you try to be thoughtful and objective. I was genuinely disappointed at the simplistic generalizations about foreigners you made. Your comments in this case, however different from your intent or usual stance, seem to show you feel foreigners are the only ones who might go into this film thinking it could be propoganda.
Mike, I won’t deny you the right to feel genuinely disappointed, but I do think you’re disappointed over something that doesn’t exist. As I’ve already said above, no where do I say ONLY foreigners might go into this film thinking it could be propaganda. Likewise, Chinese hyper-nationalists aren’t the only ones who might think this film is too sympathetic to the Japanese…but are you stepping up to the plate for them? No. The two generalizations and allusions I made are easily understood by most. You may indeed personally find “jaded expats and foreigners” to be simplistic, but I respectfully think you’re being too sensitive.
For the record, I know some Chinese people who expressed disinterest in watching the movie because they think it’ll just be patriotic propaganda, like many jaded expats and foreigners I know. I also know a lot of Chinese who don’t want to watch it simply because they don’t like bloody and depressing war films as a genre.
Mike, I wonder if it might help if you try to actually summarize for us the main POINT I make in my review above, and then tell us whether you agree or disagree. In my experience, doing so often helps dispel the straw men in the midst.
Ya don’t have to be a dick… I only had the one complaint. I’m not a hyper-nationalist so I didn’t feel insulted but I am a fuckin jaded foreigner… although I was jaded from birth, has nothing to do with China.
Mike, don’t be immature. I treat others as they treat me, and I’ve been on the receiving end of what you may call your “jaded-from-birth” attitude more than a few times. You had a complaint, and I responded to it. Don’t call me a dick just because I fail to see how your complaint against me is legitimate and you can’t show me how it is.
I didn’t mean to offend. Was trying to be “funny”. I thought your liberal use of the word stupid when responding to me showed you could probably take a little back. Guess I was wrong. Sorry to offend.
It is like referring to Christian fundamentalists with regards to abortion: not every Christian fundamentalist opposes it but enough do for the generalization to be understood. Pointing out exceptions to a rule is you being disingenuous.
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Reason doesn’t allow the exception to swallow the rule.
My concern about this film is whether it will be well sub-titled for international audiences.
I happen to know that they were still looking around for a translator to subtitle this only a week or two before it was due to open. The Chinese film industry is so stingy in the fees it will offer for this kind of work, and so unreliable in making payment promptly or at all (and Lu Chuan in particular has such a reputation as a SOB) that there was a virtual boycott of the project by all the foreign translators I know.
I have seen some Chinese films where the sub-titles were clearly done by a machine-translator: complete gibberish. I have rarely seen a film – even a major release from the likes of Zhang Yimou or Chen Kaige – where the sub-titles were really good. They’re mostly done in a frantic rush, at the last-minute, by an underpaid Chinese translator – what can you expect?
I think it’s a great, great shame that this penny-pinching restricts the international access and impact of Chinese cinema.
Did you watch this with English sub-titles, Kai?
When I saw it the Super Brand Mall in Lujiazui, Pudong, Shanghai, there were no English subtitles, which made it a bit annoying during the German and Japanese language parts as I’d suddenly have to look down at the Chinese subtitles to figure out what they were saying. I don’t know if there were English subtitled versions (didn’t even think to ask) so maybe other people who have seen the movie can chime in on that. I’d be interested in seeing it again with English subtitles just to see how good they are, though I doubt I’ll cry like a little girl again, unlike…I dunno…Armageddon. :D
I agree with poor English subtitles. It really does an injustice to the film.
Where can I watch this movie?
Where are you? Many Chinese movie theatres/cinemas should be showing it.
I’m from New York. I found a chinese site called funshion.com where I can stream the movie for free, but I need english subtitles to understand what is being said. Any idea where I might be able to watch it with english subs? Thanks in advance.
Bummer, unfortunately, I have no idea where you can find English subtitles for it, nor if there are any at all. I guess you’ll have to wait and see if the movie is released in the States with the appropriate subtitles or for a fan to make subtitles for it.
The film will be screening in the Cannes film market for buyers on 14th of May, so somebody has subtitled it. The film’s Hong Kong-based sales agent is not showing Ning Hao’s CRAZY RACER because there is no English subtitled print. I’ll be at the Cannes market screening of NANJING NANJING (aka CITY OF LIFE AND DEATH) and I’m curious to see who broke the “virtual boycott”. And just to note that I thought Feng Xiaogang’s IF YOU ARE THE ONE had excellent English subtitles; they were supervised by Chris Barden who collaborated on Feng’s BIG SHOT’S FUNERAL.
Good information. Thanks.
I must concur, “If you are the one” was a great movie. I was pleasantly surprised.
Chris does great subtitles. I haven’t seen “If You Are The One” yet, but his work on 大腕儿 was inspired.
In the end almost 600,000 thousand Japanese citizens (babies, women, children, old people) died when America was forced to fire bomb then atomic bomb Japan into submission when the emperor refused to surrender. The Japanese military was crushed forever (over 2 million of their soldiers died which means A LOT of Japanese who went to Nanjing were killed later on) and they were forced to sign a constitution that said they are never to create a military other than small scale home defense. Now China is poised to become the next America. For those living in the past, not just remembering it, fueling your modern nationalism with antique hatred, I have a question for you.
How much more revenge than that do you want?
Why not firebomb Japan? 20-30 million people died in China as a result WWII. If the US didn’t firebomb the 2 cities in Japan more people in China will be killed. In addition Japan decided it was not convenient to teach their children about this atrocity and now there’s a bunch of Nanjing incident deniers out there.
I’m biased against the film, not because of any particular preconceptions about China/Japan, but because Lu Chuan still owes me about RMB 20,000 for translating the screenplay so he could get the foreign investment he needed to make the film. Two years ago. I don’t expect I’ll ever see it.
Also, the film may have turned out well, but Lu is just not a very good writer. The screenplay I translated — I understand there were a lot of changes between the time I sent it to him and the time they actually started shooting — was overwritten and minimally literate.
Whoa…this needs more background story.
I’m still trying to get paid, so I probably shouldn’t have even mentioned it. If this last attempt at getting my money doesn’t work, I’ll put up the whole story on my Chinese and English blogs.
Brendan, hope you’ll keep us updated on how it goes down. Best of luck.
“In the film, shot entirely in black and white, the Japanese soldiers are shown as ordinary people caught in the tragedy of war and not as the blood-thirsty monsters that they have always been regarded as in China.”
“But this is unforgivable in the eyes of some ultra-nationalists and Lu has already received at least one death threat.”
AFP story: http://www.google.com/hostednews/afp/article/ALeqM5gQyPBCtDv3F5GQdHhgDSiRM2a4cg
LONG LIVE THE THE GLORIOUS EMPIRE OF THE RISING SUN!!!!!!!!!!!!!
This is a GREAT movie. Put aside the stupid politics that people play and remember that this incident did happen and this is a great way of telling the story. I only saw the China version though which seems to have edited a great deal. It would also seem that Lu Chuan made a different version because I’ve seen different images where Liu Ye seems to survive longer in the movie only to be beheaded by Sergeant Ida. In the version I saw Liu Ye is a victim of the mass machine gun extermination at the river bank. He does an awesome job with his role and barely says more than a few words.
Everyone knows war is a disaster to many people, but till now, still
there are ” wars ” all over the world. Killing, robbing, fighting..etc.
When are these smart people going to learn their lesson
The Jews have been moaning about the Holocaust for decades, little is really known what the Japanese did to China in the 30′s and 40′s. It is tragic and many people suffered at the hands of the Japanese soldiers under inhuman circumstances.
It is time now that China gets off it’s backside and takes on Japan in one sweep and call it payback ! The Japs still haven’t apologized for their warcrimes, be it 60 years plus, China should take action, it will give Amnesty Int’l something to moan about but who cares !
I’ve not seen “Nanjing! Nanjing!” yet but am bent on doing so.
But what is “Assembly” about?
sad .. sad .. sad
unbelievable .. unbelievable .. unbelievable
where was god then, if he was there, this would not have had happened.
For those who would like more detail of the story, I would recommend the book “The Rape of Nanking” by Iris Chang. The movie is very touching but nothing compared to what is described in the book. What the Japanese did is very brutal, we must never forget and forgive what they have done. However, one thing I can never understand, there are so many of us, why it is so difficult to face up to them then rather than submit meekly and get slaughtered. This is what bothers me most.
@ Jerry
“Stuart, after all this time, I come back still finding you … ”
Well, I check CNReviews regularly and scan the recent comments for signs of intelligent debate. Imagine my disappointment when I found an old thread was being overrun by the tell-tale venom of nationalistic absurdity.
Therefore I gave it the treatment it deserved, which, as you can see, met with a somewhat frenzied and intellectually limited response.
As for the numerous false premises of your own reply, they are, of course, rejected.
@ JNagarya
“If being an arrogant prig…”
15-love
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“Why not choose the country in which you sit on your butt…etc etc”
30-love
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“… the fact that without your smug arrogance …”
Fact? There you go again with your ‘facts’!
40-love
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“… only snide supremacist comments which stand upon no legs whatsoever.”
Game, set, and match, old sport.
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“You wrote all that wonderful Chinese literature, Mr. Insufferable Snot?”
You’ve already lost the game; no need to induce epistaxis.
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“… such a perfectly accomplished bigot such as you.”
Careful, old sport. Stress-induced epistaxis can be followed by myocardial infarction.
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Disagree with me, by all means. Argue your points and turn me around if you can. But once the red mist descends and you resort to petty insult, the game’s over.
Take a deep breath, calm down, and try to come up with a more coherent, respectful response.
I’m always amenable to that.
@Stuart
JNagarya was inaccurate about his historical facts at some points but your rebuttals were just as bad and inaccurate as you claim his were.
“I don’t really get that. Did the Egyptians (to name but one) disappear to a distant galaxy for a few centuries? Further, your argument depends on a very loose definition of ‘civilization’.”
Egypt as a civilization did come out earlier than China, but never as continuous as China. They lost their independence since 343 BC to the Persians. The Greeks and Roman came after that. Then there was the Arab and the Ottoman. And in the Modern time there were the French and British followed by anarchy period, they finally gained self rule in 1953 after how long? Make sure you count the years or just skip to centuries. On the other hand, Mongolians was the only foreign power to fully occupy China. It really is a joke for you to equalize Egypt with China.
“Leaving aside some pretty dubious claims on the part of Chinese ‘historians’, it would be nice if they could one day stop viewing these items as China’s gift to cave-dwellers beyond the Middle Kingdom. It’s all very jingoistic and insecure, don’t you think?”
The earliest compass appeared in China in the 4th century. Europe was still under the slave system under the Roman Empire, with the European continent still largely undeveloped and unknown.
Gunpowder was discovered by Chinese alchemist in the 9th century. Where is Europe at this point? You are right, Europe is still in the Dark Ages, where the Vikings were running rampart invading everyone at this point.
Paper making became widespread use in China in the 3rd century and 6th century paper was used as toilet paper. Where is Europe at this point? You are right again!, Europe fell from a slaves society under Rome into the beginning of the Dark Ages. Charming times for Europe isn’t it?
Again, Woodblock printing was invented in China in the early 3rd century and the rest is self explanatory.
So, even though there were no cave-dwellers in, but hey, I’d find much better security in a cave than living in Europe don’t you agree?
Lastly, you wrote “how the time of the Yuan Dynasty supports your notion of ‘Chinese’ continuity and greatness.”
Example of Yuan Dynasty clearly shows the greatness of the Chinese civilization. Yuan Dynasty only lasted 100 years, 2 to 3 times shorter than other Chinese Dynasties. Mongolians conquerored China through arms, but instead of turning China into another Mongolia, Chinese culture fully absorbed the Mongolians and turned Mongolians into Chinese like. In 100 years, they lost thier warrior life style completely and was driven out by Han Chinese.
Sorry if I wrote so much as seeing you are desperately in need of a history lesson.
Again, i feel there is no need for you to dig into the other guys context to try to squeeze out something out of nothing to write about because it’s just so easy for me to correct you as well.
“It really is a joke for you to equalize Egypt with China.”
I didn’t do any such thing – but if you want to talk pyramids v great wall sometime …
What I did was to question the validity of dismissing any form of organized societal existence outside the Middle Kingdom on the grounds that outsiders came to visit one day. Jeremiah at Granite Studio kicked off a good debate on this a while back.
“Where is Europe at this point?”
What does it matter? There was communal society with occasional internal fisticuffs – much like China.
Let’s try this: table tennis is pretty popular in China these days, but I don’t diss her modern contribution to the game by referring to the game’s origin and then asking, “where is China at this point?”
“…and 6th century paper was used as toilet paper. Where is Europe at this point?”
There you go again.
Besides, if the use of toilet paper is your litmus test for civilized society, then I’m bound to ask the following question: what the hell happened to Chinese civilization? On a more serious note, how far did the use of paper extend throughout the Middle Kingdom of old? If it was only the emperor wiping his backside with paper how can the act justifiably be generalised to society as a whole?
“Mongolians conquerored China through arms, but instead of turning China into another Mongolia, Chinese culture fully absorbed the Mongolians and turned Mongolians into Chinese like.”
Ahh, yes! Assimilated by the greatness of the invaded civilization! A very dodgy argument indeed; and one that is at odds with your comments about Egypt and her hostile neighbours. It’s also the reverse of what Tibetans have been experiencing for the past half century – the greatness of the invading civilization! Further, how can you ‘fully absorb’ the invader and then:
“In 100 years, they lost thier warrior life style completely and was driven out by Han Chinese.”
Why are you so keen to distance yourself from one of China’s official ethnicities?
A disturbing trend in China among Han Chinese that emerged in countless conversations I had during my time there was the rejection that any vestige of Mongol blood was coursing through their veins – that they were ‘of pure Han blood’. This is most unlikely, if not impossible, given the Mongol penchant for impregnating the women of conquered lands.
“Sorry if I wrote so much as seeing you are desperately in need of a history lesson.”
I love learning more about history. But lessons need to be delivered untainted by a nationalist agenda and free of revisionist influence. Which is why any narrative inherited via CCP-sanctioned ‘history’ should be subjected to the closest scrutiny.
@Stuart
I find it disturbing that you are trying to defend all these points, which you initiated in the first place.
“I didn’t do any such thing – but if you want to talk pyramids v great wall sometime …”
You did mention Egypt, and without admitting it, you do believe Egypt is on par with China throughout history, which I strongly disagree by going into detail about what happened in Egypt and China. I don’t want to go there, but since you mentioned about pyramids and great wall. Great Wall served a practical purpose. It provided solid national security for inner China for 1500 years before Qing Dynasty made it irrelevant. And what about the Pyramids? It’s nothing but personal pursuits of the Pharaohs, tombs for the dead. You had a Eygpt whose leader used slaves to benefit himself, and there was China whose Empoerer united all the walls to built the Great Wall for the country. The difference between the two culture was pretty significant and definitely not on the same level.
““Where is Europe at this point?”
Now you are blaming me for the same thing you did to JNagarya’s response. You went into his context and mentioned about Europe. All I did in response to you was picking up where you left off and proved to you that Europe back then was not much better off than cave-dwellers.
“On a more serious note, how far did the use of paper extend throughout the Middle Kingdom of old?”
Paper was indeed a scarcity in the 3rd century but became widely used later on, therefore, even ordinary people began using it as toilet paper three centuries later. It is self-explanatory. Do not act dumb and ask me the same stupid question.
“Ahh, yes! Assimilated by the greatness of the invaded civilization! A very dodgy argument indeed;”
It’s not dodgy at all. It is a fact. Not only in China, but all the places the Mongolians conquered, they quickly dissolved into the local society and adopted the local mainstream culture. So in the end, the Mongolians did not really discontinue any civilizations. Therefore your initial argument using the Yuan Dynasty to disprove continuity in Chinese civilization is false.
” and one that is at odds with your comments about Egypt and her hostile neighbours. ”
It’s not at odds with my comments at all, because I nowhere believe Egypt was as great as China. They could not repel foreign occupation after being conquered. The Persians left because the Greeks defeated them. The Romans left because they self-disintegrated. The most obvious trait about Egypt was its inability govern themselves and the change of hands of foreign occupations. It in fact, supports my first argument, which Egypt was nowhere near China on the development culture and civilization.
“Why are you so keen to distance yourself from one of China’s official ethnicities?”
WoW, spin more please. Correct me if I am wrong, We are talking about the the 13th to 14th centuries here not 2010. In ancient China, none but Han people are considered Chinese. Do not dare accusing me something like above.
“A disturbing trend in China among Han Chinese that emerged in countless conversations I had during my time there was the rejection that any vestige of Mongol blood was coursing through their veins – that they were ‘of pure Han blood’”
It may disturb anyone who don’t know any better, but never to those who do. Interracial marriage (ok Mongolians were not considered Chinese back then don’t try to spin it again plz) back then was strictly forbidden starting with the Yuan’s imperial family. Han Chinese were 2nd class citizens and many were employed as slaves. Also, ancient Chinese society was extremely conservative. Anyone who was found to have Mongolian blood in them were discriminated against and scrutinized. Also, the Chinese population outnumbered Mongolians something like 100:1. The chances of having a widespread of impregnation of Han women and having them actually give birth was slim to none. In the end, all Mongolians were driven out of the great wall, ending their short-lived rule. It’s not hard to preserve the purity of one ethnicity based on those circumstances. Some people may lie about their ethnicity, but all I am saying here is that the majority of Han ethnicity did not fuse with Mongolians at all.
“I love learning more about history. But lessons need to be delivered untainted by a nationalist agenda and free of revisionist influence.”
I made no such connection with any modern nationalist agenda or revisionist influence, which you are accusing me of. I provided you with many factual evidences of ancient China. It’s your habit of tying the knot between the past and the current CCP not mine.
Congratulations, Jerry.
There’s enough straw in those responses to feed all the bison in Yellowstone. I respectfully refer you to my previous reply for closer inspection.
Btw, do you have JNagarya’s proxy? You seem to be speaking a lot on his/her behalf.
@Stuart,
No Stuart, it never tires me out to debate with a hypocrite like you.
“Btw, do you have JNagarya’s proxy? You seem to be speaking a lot on his/her behalf.”
Ah, there goes your fav. tactic again, throwing out accusations like water coming out of a broken pipe. On the contrary, congratulations to you for arguing here alone. I find it hard to believe that nobody has supported you here since you are so “divine” and “just”.
Too much straw. Try again.
“Stuart” –
“Btw, do you have JNagarya’s proxy? You seem to be speaking a lot on his/her behalf.”
You’re paranoia is showing.
Paranoia is a negative megalomania. The person afflicted with it, “Stuart,” is ego-deluded that the entire universe, and everyone in it, is focused exclusively upon his superiority even to All — but that they are hostile to him.
As to your accusing “Jerry” of posting “enough strraw (etc.)”: you make no effort to refute any of his alleged “straw”; instead, and in place of that effort at substance, you sling straw.
JNagarya was inaccurate about his historical facts at some points but your rebuttals were just as bad and inaccurate as you claim his were.
_____
I disagree. Suppose China has been a continuous civilization — the longest continuous civilization on the planet — for “only” 5,000 years. That is known becuase based upon and substantiated by the record. The record was made in part in writing. I would suggest that it took, say, a prior 1,000 years for China to develop a written language, and evolve to the point of using that to make that record beginning some 5,000 years ago.
As for “Stuart”: I’m not actually about competing with him as to “fact” — he disparages even fact — but to directly expose him for what he is: racist supremacist.
Too much argumentum ad hominem, old sport. Try again.
Now that I have your attention let’s cut to the chase:
Bashing the entire 6,000 year history of China because of the “fact” that it has been “Commie” for a mere 60 of those years suggests — conclusively — that that “fact” is but convenient pretext for something else: your obvious racist supremacism.
Disparaging my statement of the facts concerning China’s history — including the fact of its 6,000 years of continuous civilization — doesn’t alter those facts. Except in the view of those who lie against them.
We see you for what you are, pompous slug.
stuart says:
January 31, 2010 at 7:47 pm
Disagree with me, by all means. Argue your points and turn me around if you can. But once the red mist descends and you resort to petty insult, the game’s over.
Take a deep breath, calm down, and try to come up with a more coherent, respectful response.
I’m always amenable to that.
There’s simply no helping some people.
We see that in your unwillingness — or, worse, inability — to learn.
Then find a better argument.
“Then find a better argument.”
What you really want is let’s find an argument, which you can win, or not too complicated for your brain.
Civilised discussion, not ‘winning’, is the object, old sport.
“Civilised discussion, not ‘winning’, is the object, old sport.”
Oh really, you just discredited any sort of formal debate competition on any level and ridiculed of all the scholars awarded as winners. Conclusion here is Stuart is too civilized to reason with anyone. You are not a liberal out of San Fransisco aren’t you?
Also, good job spinning the issue off somewhere else again like a lowly politician.
Debate is not within the purview of those too readily reduced to apoplexy and ad hominems.
“Debate is not within the purview of those too readily reduced to apoplexy and ad hominems.”
It’s also not about using big and outdated medical term to show your pretentiousness.
I rest my case, respectfully.
Holy s#%t, I come here to read a movie review, then all I see are these Japanese sympathizers here defending the Japanese.
Just to point out, the Japs also tend to dwell overly on what a terrible experience World War II was for them. Countless films and shows were made depicting themselves as victims especially at the end of the war when the U.S were getting back at them. Talk about stirring up nationalism and patriotism for the wrong cause, the Japs can do as well as any other country.
Here is Japanese activist Tamaki Matsuoka who made a documentary film in 2010 interviewing over 250 Jap WWII vet. Only 3 people admitted atrocities and felt sorry for what they did. That’s a shocking 1.2% and what were their excuses for not being sorry? – They were young men who could die any moment, so it was ok for them to have a bit of “fun” once they were in Nanjing. You can read it yourself on CBC.
http://www.cbc.ca/arts/film/story/2010/03/31/nanjing-documentary.html
So, the conclusion here is that 70 years later we still only have 1.2% of the Jap vet who lived through it confirming the truth. The rest all deny it uniformly. They rather carry the truth to the graves instead of apologizing. This is more than enough reason for other countries to make film about all the atrocities committed by Imperial Japan.
Urgh, you guys suck. Hard. Overcome your nationalism, will you? This is so 20th century, wake the fuck up and smell the future, people.
@Demut, be a mindless freak like you without language, border and culture and be ignorant of anything that comes around? A typical extreme left like you who is not attached to your country and lack principle, who believes in nothing except yourself would say that for sure. Cause everything else is evil beside only you right?
@Demut, rofl, typical response from liberal who can’t defend himself but value himself above Jesus. Well for that brian of yours, i can give u wings but u still can’t fly.
I liked the movie,was a good one.
It’s not just the South Koreans (probably North as well) and Chinese that have a vehement hatred of the Japanese. You can count the Filipinos in as having deep antipathy….. well at least the older ones; the anger has dissipated through the generations enough so it exists no more amongst the younger people.
The deep-seated hatred by the Koreans is based on 35+ years of brutal Japanese subjugation while for the Chinese it was 14 years of intense genocidal Japanese atrocities. For the Filipinos, it was a “brief” 3 years but those 3 years was enough to implant an deep-seated hatred and anger for those Filipinos who lived thru it.
In defeated Germany the British, Americans and, unsurprisingly, the Russians/Soviets, as part of the “denazification” of Germany created institutions the would “teach” anti-nazism. They introduced defacto anti-nazi indoctrination that taught the atrocities perpetrated by the nazis. Those institutions created by them continued this anti-nazism “education” in years afterward.
In japan the plan was to be the same under McArthur that institutions would be created to “educate” the japanese on the atrocities they had perpetrated in other lands. But it was not to be. The plans to implement these institutions were derailed with the conflict in Korea.
This is the major reason that German “war guilt” exists in Germany while there is no “war guilt” in japan.
Anyone that says “oh the Chinese need to get past it and move on” need to do some research on the surviving British, American and Australian soldiers attitude toward the japanese they fought. It’s quite revealing in that the vast majority of them are NOT apologetic for any atrocities committed by the British, Americans and Australians against the japanese and the single most given reason for being unapologetic is that the japanese “had it coming”.