Keeping pressure on China, or any other government, can speed change along, even if that pressure comes from outside. Of course change comes from within, but without pressure there will be less motivation/awareness of the need for change. The same hold for the USA. Outside pressure has worked on numerous occasions. It offers “an extra reference point so that they can think about what is best for China”, in your words.

Talking about human rights isn’t about earning goodwill points: it’s about talking about human rights. If you don’t listen to a message on account of the messenger, you are making the mistake, not the messenger. Should we, in effect, shut up about everything simply because we are not Chinese? We are all people from the planet earth. I’m rather picky about who I share the earth with.

When I tell people about SA and how it has changed: human rights, freedom of speech, non-discrimination, most progressive constitution in the world… etc, I invariably end up offending some Chinese people too. Nelson Mandela and Desmond Tutu have already expressed their hope that human rights and freedom of speech would be respected in China.

I accept China doesn’t want to react to outside pressure, but it doesn’t make such pressure useless, nor malicious, nor ignorant.

Now that I understand your point of view better, I think you have unconsciously proven that freedom of speech does not guarantee everything will make things better. People need to be able to persuade others of the validity of their arguments and win them over.

I’m keenly aware that there are many things which can be better in China. Speaking among Chinese friends I know well, I’ll even tell them about things which can be improved, and how I think they can be improved. But I’m not a Chinese citizen, and I can only offer my POV as an outsider. China can only be changed from the inside, by the Chinese, just as America can only be changed from the inside, by Americans.

Let’s say that you want to talk to Chinese about human rights; how much goodwill do you really think that you will earn by doing so? There is a simple reality: what you can get away with often depends on the face of the messenger. For nearly 200 years, Chinese have been denouncing how westerners have been screwing China through unequal treaties, colonialism and later invasion (by Japan). If you start denouncing China’s human rights situation, you immediately fall into the stereotype of yet another westerner trying to tell the Chinese how they should run their country.

You may not think that that is a trap, but I do. Especially when Chinese are going through a nationalistic phase, and when they are particularly sensitive to how China is viewed by the rest of the world.

Sometimes it is good to talk, and sometimes it is good to shut up and listen. Knowing the difference between the two is called tact.

From my perspective, you could win many more friends in China by telling them how South Africa has changed from an apartheid state to one where there is majority rule, and how it achieved some degree of success with the Truth and Reconciliation committees, and of course, with Nelson Mandela, who is respected by everyone. This gives your Chinese friends an extra reference point so they can think about what is best for China.

You can get arrested for congregating in China. I imagine that is for fear of mob mentality. You can get arrested for inciting violence in most countries and in the uniques little country called the United States of America you can get sued for libel or slander.

Freedom of speech is a double edged sword that should be kept away from small children and those who think like small children cos when wielded the wrong way it is potentially harmful to yourself and others…..

We should celebrate that we all have the Freedom of Silence

I am not American, sigh, and I’ve been living in China for seven years. I have spent “some” time in China and have certainly formed my own opinions.

If I show you evidence I also talk about human rights elsewhere, will I then be allowed to talk about human rights in China? There are plenty of people who oppose both American policies AND Chinese Government policies. I get tired of being told two wrongs make a right, and if America can do it so should we. You’re a hypocrite if you attack America’s human rights violations but ignore China’s. But I live in China, so now, at this moment, my concern is for China.

@dedlam: I erm agree with you: I think it’s part of our own brainwashing that says “democracy” = elections. In the Afrikaans language piece on my blog, I mention that we could learn a lot from China, the way the government has to react immediately to pressing needs in the absence of an electoral mandate. The conclusion there is in fact that China might be more democratic than many western democracies.

My antagonism towards the government is mainly because of media control and lack of freedom of speech. I’ve seen the results in SA: ignorance, xenophobia, super-nationalism, etc.

I, weirdly, love China. That’s the only word that fits. Believe it or not. And I think one tiny little thing — free speech — could propel this country into unlimited greatness. Hence also my lack of tact: it was a conscious decision. I think some people need to be confronted, to force them to shift their world views. Not all, but some. And I also got sick and tired of hearing foreigners complain about China when we’re alone, but then treat Chinese people with polite condescension to their faces. And yes, sometimes I get jealous that THOSE fake people are so well liked at work, and I am not, but hey… that’s life.

I understand that you are not sitting in the US commenting on China but located in Xi’an.

So my question is why the animosity towards the government? The only real difference that I see between the Western Democratic System right now and the State Controlled non-democratic Government is really the absence of the election. Not uncommon across the world. Even in the US it is essentially a 2 party system and since the Bush administration came into power even many the checks & balances that the constitution and bill of rights have been done away with post 9/11 through the Homeland Security Act. The spirit of that act is that it is designed to protect the citizens similarly to how the “suggestions” from the Chinese Government are not design to oppress the citizens of China but to unite them.

Although, it is in fact authoritarian to ban entertainment during a mourning period, it makes sense to allow citizens to focus their energy on grief rather than anger…which will be the next public reaction given the reports of corner cutting in School constructions.

I see no difference in this type of control compared to the ability to “hold” suspected terrorists without trial in the US and the justification for use of “indirect” torture in the interest of national security. Imagine the public danger caused if citizens of China decided to lynch the employees of the construction company that built the schools.

In that respect I do not disagree fully with your comparison, if that is the basis on which you are comparing, but in the same instance you could make that same comparison to places the US and Singapore. The difference that makes these places different though from the Apartheid SA and Nazi Germany is that they are authoritarian in the interest of it’s citizens rather than in the interest of a disconnected belief associated to race.

Certainly I would not wish to be unauthoritarian when tasked with the welfare of 1.3 billion citizens.

Your comparisons of modern China to apartheid South Africa and Nazi Germany are bordering on bad taste and are bound to offend many Chinese, especially at this time. Chinese have many complaints about their own government, but to compare it to those really odious regimes, especially Nazi Germany, which systematically murdered minorities in death factories, is too much.

I get a little tired of Americans talking about democracy and human rights in China after Guantanamo, rendering, waterboarding, unauthorized wiretaps, suspension of habeas corpus and right to public trial, and Abu Ghraib. If we are going to talk about human rights, let’s talk about how they are implemented all over the world, including the US, not just in China. BTW, I’m an American.

If you have an open mind about China, then you really need to visit China, spend some time in the country, then form your own opinions.

http://thechinabusinessnetwork.com/Hot-Topics/Paul-Denlinger-Wants-To-See-How-Many-Ways-We-Can-Get-This-Wrong.html

He says this: “The edict [the order to shut down the entertainment websites] came across as heavy-handed in English, but in its original Chinese, it was framed more as a recommendation.”

Although I don’t agree with the misinterpretation of it by western media, I must point out that any such “recommendations” from “authoritarian” governments will, regardless of wording, set off alarm bells in “the west”. It reminds of South African Apartheid government orders to kill people, that were given in the most offensive euphemisms: “take him out”, “remove him from society”, “neutralize him” and “you know what to do”. This resulted in many powerful apartheid era officials literally getting away with murder, because no fingers could be pointed to them directly. There exists a kind of super-zealous layer of society who will turn suggestions into orders to ingratiate themselves with their leaders. The leaders know this.

@Elliot
Problem: Westerners have a more static view of society because we live a slower-growing, more stable society.

I beg to differ. Not all of us do in fact live in more stable societies, by the way. But the point is: how do you measure change in a society? Do you count the number of cellphones and disposable income? What has really changed in Chinese society since 1989 (to pick a number out of a hat)? More openness? How do you measure this? Do you ask the beneficiaries of the rapidly growing economy whether they think they live in a “totalitarian regime”? Will they say yes? Will they think they do, if they’d been indoctrinated to think they don’t?

Or you could ask RSF and they’d tell you stories about journalists and bloggers in jail and internet censorship the likes of which we’ve never seen before.

When so many stop saying the exact same things over and over, we might consider societal change:

“You should learn more about China and the Chinese.” Maybe we should have learned more about Germany and the Germans, hey. I think the intent in calling me “foreign devil” is pretty clear regardless of the language barrier, although I agree that is a big barrier and we shouldn’t hold it against each other.

@winserzhao: I bet some of your best friends are foreigners.