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Good post Elliott, here’s my take:

http://www.chinavortex.com/2008/05/lets-see-how-many-ways-we-can-get-this-wrong/

Unfortunately, many Americans look for simple answers to very complicated issues. (After all, many think that their time is so much more precious than other peoples.) China is very complicated. Doesn’t it make things so much easier to say that they are different people who live under an authoritarian regime, even though that is such an overly simplified and outdated notion?

I mean, are they for us or against us? I really don’t need to know more about them, do I?

Being curious and trying to understand people on their own terms takes a lot of time. However, globalization means that it is important to understand others, even if it does take time.

Now, how about spending more time to get context to understand the Chinese? Is that asking too much?

Elliott, I don’t follow Robert Scoble but given his reputation and this episode, he appears to be a great example of how even educated, intelligent people are not always educated or intelligent in all things.

The other comments on that Twitter stream are, unfortunately, about par for the course. I can only hope that those Scoble followers will follow your link here to get some additional insight into the entire situation before they fire off other canned responses to anything they assume the Chinese are doing. Criticism where criticism is due is valid and worthwhile, but misplaced criticism based upon sheer ignorance is simply inexcusable. “Mind the Gap” indeed.

Also, I think Will Moss @ ImageThief boils down to the only real issue in this entire matter: An enforced entertainment blackout may be going a bit too far and easily misunderstood or misrepresented (mostly by Western eyes). If the government only made a suggestion or request where adherence was clearly understood to be voluntary, it would’ve been a far more subtle move that probably would’ve gotten wide-scale adherence anyway with far fewer people questioning.

am Chinese, i agree with what you said.
sometimes,the central government need some democracy,but we all stand by our nation. no reasons and excuses for us do not love our nation.
i have some western friends. sometimes i didnt tell them the truth because i found they cant hear it.it is true,they should learn more about China and Chinese. but i still cherish our friendship.
Chinese has a wider views now, the western people should listen to the different voices. especially when they talk something about China.
Chinese welcome every friend to come to the country.even just for a glimpse.

I agree with Kai. Either someone misread the government communique or the government itself is bumbling international PR, again.

Basically, official media is all owned by the Chinese government, and they are not known for doing things in an especially subtle manner. Just like the US government nowadays, if you criticize any of their policies in the Global War On Terror, they come back at you and implicitly or explicitly question your loyalty to the US. It’s all about framing the argument in a way which suits them.

So when you look at what Xinhua and the official online media organs say, you need to keep in mind that they don’t care about what the foreign media or bloggers say or think, they are impressing their minders above them that they are doing the job. It’s about managing up, not down.

Number three is very much true: In conversations with Chinese people I have heard time and again that, to them, speaking ill of the government slights the Chinese people themselves. A Chinese friend of mine has to consciously step back and un-take offense when I criticize his government. It is, generally speaking, their default response.

Your article brings up a lot of interesting points but one thing that must be understood is that perception of any government is determined by the source of your information. I noticed that although the quake is still in the forefront of the minds of people in China, it is something that has become a “human interest” story on CNN.

We see what we are presented with and the fact of the matter is someone surfing the internet in the US has no concept of what it is like to live in a country that has a centrally controlled government and I imagine that Chinese citizens would not know what to do if given the responsibility of choosing their next president.

It is much better for a government to portray the grass on the other side as brown, because if it was greener, you’d have the same situation as you had with the USSR and probably if media ever got into North Korea they would have the same problem on their hands. So the US media is also controlled but just not as directly. If CNN were to behave like a British tabloid they’d soon be out of business. This is why so many Americans turn to Jon Stewart for their political news and commentary. The delivery is different but the fundamentals are the same. China’s freedom of speech is limited but I didn’t see anyone passing a microphone to Timothy McVeigh either.

As such the US government controls the US perception and it is in the interest of the US Government to criticize China, In the same way that China uses directives to control how Chinese think. The only place where freedom of speech exists is in your head and really our opinions are not our own, they are a reflection of what the people around us think.

I just did a quick research on the whole “ban entertainment enforcement” issue. The State Council has asked to “停止公共娱乐活动” (public entertainment/recreation activities). The scope is not defined, each province/city goverment has the “right” to interprete it i guest.

I just check Baidu.com, its MP3 search function is funtioning (not as the Anhui government has requested, of course, Baidu is not an Anhui company). I called a CashBox Partyworld KTV in Shanghai, they are closed for 3 days to “cooperate with the State Council’s Spritit”. I called aother chain KTV store in Shanghai and got the same answer. Shanghai Dramatic Arts Center has scheduled all the shows.

My take for this is: the State Council just made a suggestion, but local goverment can execute the suggestion at its interpretation, just as California is now allowed same-sex marriage in US.

BTW, I am one of those who “will defense for my mama” in Elliott’s post, but i don’t say I don’t love freedom of speech. If your Chinese friends are not post 80s generations, their reactions are probabaly like mine.

Good post Elliot! It’s sad that so many Westerners have such a limited understanding of China. I’m not sure if this is particularly true for Americans, but (on the risk of generalizing too much and commiting the same mistake), they do seem to have the idea that the world still centers around America and that America’s way is the only right way. Perhaps they should ask some normal Chinese people if they feel heavily oppressed and unhappy.

And to everyone who is complaning about those comments on the national 3 days mourning… show some dignity…

I am so glad that you didn’t mention a single thing that the Chinese can do to improve this communication problem. I totally agree that it is the responsibility of the west to understand China, but not the other way around. That’s the mandate of heaven.

@Bill You are right that this post is more directed at Westerners than Chinese people. That is because it was in response to Robert Scoble and his FriendFeed people (see the link in the post). Also, it is because of the timing - I’m trying to be sensitive to the national mood. Imagine (assuming you are American) if someone criticized your government right after the 9-11 terrorist attacks. Would you be in the mood to listen?

But here are a few quick thoughts on what I think Chinese people can do:
1. Recognize that a high degree of patriotism exists and it can turn into national chauvinism. Chinese people need to listen better too. For example, there was this dispute over these Japanese islands and I don’t think the majority of the Chinese people really wanted to understand what the Japanese position was.
2. Consider if they want their culture to tolerate diversity of opinion. The whole online “lynching of Grace Wang”, death threats included, was a great example of how this patriotism becomes “tyranny of the majority.” Is that what Chinese people really want for themselves? I don’t think many Chinese really want to understand the grievances of the Tibetan people, especially when their government is being attacked by outsiders. How many people have talked to Tibetans to understand what they think?
3. Recognize that there is more national defensiveness toward criticism than Europeans and Americans have. As a player on the world stage, China is subject to the scrutiny and criticism of its neighbors. This criticism is a measure of respect for China — treating China like any other country in the world.
4. Make sure Westerners know that Chinese people know that their mainstream media is censored. Make sure Westerners know how much you know from the internet and the outside world.
5. Stop talking about centuries of Western imperialism. Its over. Focus on the future. Recognize that an open economic system exists because it was crafted by the United States and Allies after World War II (aka in China as “the War Against Japanese Aggression”). Recognize that the US and Allies had the wisdom to rebuild Germany and Japan and include them in the world economic system. Try to see that a rising China can be completely in the national interest of the US and Europe.
6. Stop being defensive about Chairman Mao. He did some bad things. He was more than 30% incorrect. Have an open dialogue about the past. China could have been as successful as Japan after World War II and instead was forced into a different path. That’s 30-50 year loss.

I’ll post about this some other time but want to understand the Chinese point of view better before I do so. I’d prefer to have someone like my co-blogger Min post this because I have very limited view into what most Chinese people think.

Good post for engaging with the issue. Now, I’d like to propose Numer 7. Chinese people should come to understand that all of the above points 1 through 6 have, in fact, been engineered over years of Communist Party indoctrination where the primary aim was to entwine culture, identity and morality with the apparatus and language of the state to promote complete and utter hegemony. Sorry, I struggle with being succinct. Let me try again: Chinese people are really brainwashed, and I for one am not going to pussy-foot around the issue in a one-sided attempt at cultural understanding. Points 1 through 7 directly benefit the government and keeps it in power. It’s elementary to assume that the government has been nurturing them for years.

Controlling information is wrong, controlling moral responses is wrong and an earthquake is not going to change that. To argue that the ability to circumvent the net nanny proves many Chinese people are actually doing it, is simply a fallacy. Don’t underestimate the power of serendipitous information discovery.

Unfortunately winserzhao’s comment above nicely sums it up: we stand by our nation. Sure you can stand by your nation, but your nation is not your government. You’ve only been led to believe that for, well, I’m tempted to say 5000 years.

Even saying “sometimes,the central government need some democracy” is EXACTLY the party line, put forth by the party to create an outlet for populist aspirations. A little democracy won’t hurt, would it?

And, very stereotypical in my experience: “sometimes i didnt tell them the truth because i found they cant hear it.it is true,they should learn more about China and Chinese.”

TELL me the truth! (Sorry, it looks very dramatic with capital letters.) We can listen. I do regularly, and I’m terribly sorry to report the exact opposite experience: I don’t find Chinese people who listen. (Present company obviously excluded. Around here, anyway. [Xi’an])

The fact is just no amount of “cultural sensitivity” is going to change wrong things into right things, or stupidity into profound inspiration. It goes both ways, of course, and I regularly cringe for the vomit some foreigners spew forth. But if I get told again that I should study Chinese history more, or that I should listen to different voices, I will be the one to vomit.

Great post Elliot. I’ve not been in China that long but can definitely relate to the points you raise and hopefully I’ve adapted my thinking and become a more tolerant and understanding person in the process. I agree there are things the Chinese people and government could do more of to help with the misconceptions but we should all just try harder.

For those using this as an excuse to bash China please just have some humanity. Try reading some of the stories of hope and despair from the earthquake and get some perspective before you fire off another anti-China comment.

What we appear to be going through here is a getting-to-know you period where the West and China are feeling each other out in the knowledge that they can’t ignore each other. This post and the incredibly active discussion around things like Tibet and the tragic earthquake are the result of this friction. The kind of post on Scobie’s friend feed: Gee China, just when you have the opportunity to show the world how much you’ve changed, you pull a stunt like this. Pathetic. - darnell - (http://friendfeed.com/e/7d0a8a85-fff4-679c-4d2d-c58a2edc84fd) has contemptuous tones - but it is just the kind of thing that stimulates the dicussion. In the end, people like Darnell may or may not show an interest but others will.

My limited experience of China means that I can;t say much - but what I;ve noticed so far leads me to agree that many Westerners’ perception and dare I say it, fear, of China is a generation out of date, still largely based on the Tiananmen moment.

I spent some time in the Middle East and I’ve noticed the same kind of process happening there in the wake of 9-11, Iraq war etc. Western fear and obsession with Islam, for example, and an easy willingness among some groups of Muslims to blame all their problems on western imperialism. Like it or not, in a multipolar world we have to get to know each other. It;s not so much a clash of civilisations - more a slightly awkward meeting of proud people in a room - consciousnesses that are beginning to show an interest in each other but that don’t want to feel humiliated by any of the others. People who don;t travel will find it difficult to get the sheer physical impression of just how big and deep other cultures and civilisations run - just as big and deep in fact as their own. In some ways, that;s a scary thought for many people, particularly given the individual’s tendency, and even practical need, to see themselves as special. It’s impossible to function without our personal myths.

The big philosophical challenge is how to see ourselves as equal but different…

“This post highlights what I think Westerners don’t understand about China and Chinese people don’t understand about the West.”

I think you need another six points to redress the balance. As far as I could tell your list was heavily skewed with perceived western misunderstandings. Let me try one:

Most Chinese don’t understand (understandably) that many westerners have a better understanding of China than they do themselves. This leads to the misunderstanding that westerners don’t understand China.

May, or may not be relevant to this discussion, but I found it refreshing:

http://www.tiaodou.cncalife.com/archives/69 [Chinese]

S/he talks about Chinese identity:

“According to the Chinese people (or at least the Chinese official media), citizens of China (中国人) and Chinese (华人) are the same thing. Chinese citizens = Chinese people (with different citizenship) = Chinese culture = Chinese nation = China = Communist Party of China. In other words, ethnicity, culture, nationality all rolled into one inseparable political concept.”

(How can we make the Zhongguoren/Huaren distinction in English, btw? Chinese is not a race, is it?)

@cerebus: Zhongguoren = people with China nationality (Chinese citizen); Huaren is a broader concept that it can refer to all people with Chinese root. But all I know is about Han race (汉族), I don’t know if this is really for other “minor races” (少数民族) in China.

@cerebus reading your long story. but i feel disgusting a little of what you said.sorry.will reply you later.i can tell you should collect more info or ask your friends to tell you more about China. you are brave to expose your poor brain. sorry again,my English is not that good.but you can feel at least, i dont like your kind 洋鬼子。or foreign devil.
it is interesting,sometimes,洋鬼子 is a kidding word for my foreign friends.but sometimes,洋鬼子is seriously.i must tell you the truth. even you dont like it. i guess.

@winserzhao, no that’s fine. I wonder, do you think I will agree with you if I know more about China? The more I find out about china, the more room for improvement I see. Don’t assume I dislike China: I wouldn’t have this strong a feeling about something I dislike. I think there are relatively small things that could change, to make China a truly amazing and dynamic country. I am not right in everything I think, of course not, but I do believe sometimes outsiders can see things that people inside can’t. Please don’t forget to reply later and tell me what disgusted you so much. You can reply in Chinese, if you want. (But I can’t guarantee I’ll get all the nuances.)

@ cerebus: You make a valid, reasoned argument albeit one that doesn’t score a perfect 10 on the tact-o-meter. I’m afraid individuals like winserzhao will find it difficult to understand that argument purely due to language barrier and not for lack of intellect. I fully understand and empathize with your frustrations and can only encourage you to stay patient and try not to let the bad overshadow the good.

@ tom: I think it was fairly evident that this post by Elliott was directed at Western audiences and most applicable to those who are not so keenly aware of both sides’ hypocritical shortcomings as you are. Try to remember how annoyed we get when Chinese people come into a thread discussing valid complaints against the Chinese government and start demanding that people “balance” their posts by always including something “positive” about China. Relevance is key. Let’s try not to sidetrack this post legitimately highlighting and addressing Western ignorance into one complaining about Chinese ignorance. We can save that for another post.

Kai, I know. I think I put my tact in my back pocket and sat on it.

I guess the question here is who’s going to have to change the most over the coming decades: the Chinese or “the West”?

Of course, both SHOULD, but who will find it easier? Who will be more willing and, for example, more tolerant and adaptable? And what needs to happen to facilitate such change?

Long road ahead.

Quick addition: I read the China Business Network interview with Paul Denlinger:

http://thechinabusinessnetwork.com/Hot-Topics/Paul-Denlinger-Wants-To-See-How-Many-Ways-We-Can-Get-This-Wrong.html

He says this: “The edict [the order to shut down the entertainment websites] came across as heavy-handed in English, but in its original Chinese, it was framed more as a recommendation.”

Although I don’t agree with the misinterpretation of it by western media, I must point out that any such “recommendations” from “authoritarian” governments will, regardless of wording, set off alarm bells in “the west”. It reminds of South African Apartheid government orders to kill people, that were given in the most offensive euphemisms: “take him out”, “remove him from society”, “neutralize him” and “you know what to do”. This resulted in many powerful apartheid era officials literally getting away with murder, because no fingers could be pointed to them directly. There exists a kind of super-zealous layer of society who will turn suggestions into orders to ingratiate themselves with their leaders. The leaders know this.

@Elliot
Problem: Westerners have a more static view of society because we live a slower-growing, more stable society.

I beg to differ. Not all of us do in fact live in more stable societies, by the way. But the point is: how do you measure change in a society? Do you count the number of cellphones and disposable income? What has really changed in Chinese society since 1989 (to pick a number out of a hat)? More openness? How do you measure this? Do you ask the beneficiaries of the rapidly growing economy whether they think they live in a “totalitarian regime”? Will they say yes? Will they think they do, if they’d been indoctrinated to think they don’t?

Or you could ask RSF and they’d tell you stories about journalists and bloggers in jail and internet censorship the likes of which we’ve never seen before.

When so many stop saying the exact same things over and over, we might consider societal change:

“You should learn more about China and the Chinese.” Maybe we should have learned more about Germany and the Germans, hey. I think the intent in calling me “foreign devil” is pretty clear regardless of the language barrier, although I agree that is a big barrier and we shouldn’t hold it against each other.

@winserzhao: I bet some of your best friends are foreigners.

@cerebus–

Your comparisons of modern China to apartheid South Africa and Nazi Germany are bordering on bad taste and are bound to offend many Chinese, especially at this time. Chinese have many complaints about their own government, but to compare it to those really odious regimes, especially Nazi Germany, which systematically murdered minorities in death factories, is too much.

I get a little tired of Americans talking about democracy and human rights in China after Guantanamo, rendering, waterboarding, unauthorized wiretaps, suspension of habeas corpus and right to public trial, and Abu Ghraib. If we are going to talk about human rights, let’s talk about how they are implemented all over the world, including the US, not just in China. BTW, I’m an American.

If you have an open mind about China, then you really need to visit China, spend some time in the country, then form your own opinions.

@cerebus
Not to join the Foreign Devil bashing here, I just read your analysis of earthquake “predictions” on your blog and I am surprised that with such an analytical and well informed mind you are making comparisons Nazi Germany, Apartheid SA with China.

I understand that you are not sitting in the US commenting on China but located in Xi’an.

So my question is why the animosity towards the government? The only real difference that I see between the Western Democratic System right now and the State Controlled non-democratic Government is really the absence of the election. Not uncommon across the world. Even in the US it is essentially a 2 party system and since the Bush administration came into power even many the checks & balances that the constitution and bill of rights have been done away with post 9/11 through the Homeland Security Act. The spirit of that act is that it is designed to protect the citizens similarly to how the “suggestions” from the Chinese Government are not design to oppress the citizens of China but to unite them.

Although, it is in fact authoritarian to ban entertainment during a mourning period, it makes sense to allow citizens to focus their energy on grief rather than anger…which will be the next public reaction given the reports of corner cutting in School constructions.

I see no difference in this type of control compared to the ability to “hold” suspected terrorists without trial in the US and the justification for use of “indirect” torture in the interest of national security. Imagine the public danger caused if citizens of China decided to lynch the employees of the construction company that built the schools.

In that respect I do not disagree fully with your comparison, if that is the basis on which you are comparing, but in the same instance you could make that same comparison to places the US and Singapore. The difference that makes these places different though from the Apartheid SA and Nazi Germany is that they are authoritarian in the interest of it’s citizens rather than in the interest of a disconnected belief associated to race.

Certainly I would not wish to be unauthoritarian when tasked with the welfare of 1.3 billion citizens.

@Paul: I believe I said the word “recommendation” REMINDS of Apartheid SA, meaning the word set off alarm bells. I did not mean to say there is a direct comparison. I apologise for my shortcomings in expressing myself clearly. I was trying to show WHY western observers might react so negatively towards it. As for Germany, I meant that conflict can’t always be avoided, even by “learning more” about each other.

I am not American, sigh, and I’ve been living in China for seven years. I have spent “some” time in China and have certainly formed my own opinions.

If I show you evidence I also talk about human rights elsewhere, will I then be allowed to talk about human rights in China? There are plenty of people who oppose both American policies AND Chinese Government policies. I get tired of being told two wrongs make a right, and if America can do it so should we. You’re a hypocrite if you attack America’s human rights violations but ignore China’s. But I live in China, so now, at this moment, my concern is for China.

@dedlam: I erm agree with you: I think it’s part of our own brainwashing that says “democracy” = elections. In the Afrikaans language piece on my blog, I mention that we could learn a lot from China, the way the government has to react immediately to pressing needs in the absence of an electoral mandate. The conclusion there is in fact that China might be more democratic than many western democracies.

My antagonism towards the government is mainly because of media control and lack of freedom of speech. I’ve seen the results in SA: ignorance, xenophobia, super-nationalism, etc.

I, weirdly, love China. That’s the only word that fits. Believe it or not. And I think one tiny little thing — free speech — could propel this country into unlimited greatness. Hence also my lack of tact: it was a conscious decision. I think some people need to be confronted, to force them to shift their world views. Not all, but some. And I also got sick and tired of hearing foreigners complain about China when we’re alone, but then treat Chinese people with polite condescension to their faces. And yes, sometimes I get jealous that THOSE fake people are so well liked at work, and I am not, but hey… that’s life.

@cerebus
Freedom of speech is an interesting concept. I just read an article recently where someone was taken from his home and arrested for writing racial attacks against Hindu’s on his blog in Singapore.

You can get arrested for congregating in China. I imagine that is for fear of mob mentality. You can get arrested for inciting violence in most countries and in the uniques little country called the United States of America you can get sued for libel or slander.

Freedom of speech is a double edged sword that should be kept away from small children and those who think like small children cos when wielded the wrong way it is potentially harmful to yourself and others…..

We should celebrate that we all have the Freedom of Silence

Gosh we’ve gone off topic a bit!

@ cerebus

Now that I understand your point of view better, I think you have unconsciously proven that freedom of speech does not guarantee everything will make things better. People need to be able to persuade others of the validity of their arguments and win them over.

I’m keenly aware that there are many things which can be better in China. Speaking among Chinese friends I know well, I’ll even tell them about things which can be improved, and how I think they can be improved. But I’m not a Chinese citizen, and I can only offer my POV as an outsider. China can only be changed from the inside, by the Chinese, just as America can only be changed from the inside, by Americans.

Let’s say that you want to talk to Chinese about human rights; how much goodwill do you really think that you will earn by doing so? There is a simple reality: what you can get away with often depends on the face of the messenger. For nearly 200 years, Chinese have been denouncing how westerners have been screwing China through unequal treaties, colonialism and later invasion (by Japan). If you start denouncing China’s human rights situation, you immediately fall into the stereotype of yet another westerner trying to tell the Chinese how they should run their country.

You may not think that that is a trap, but I do. Especially when Chinese are going through a nationalistic phase, and when they are particularly sensitive to how China is viewed by the rest of the world.

Sometimes it is good to talk, and sometimes it is good to shut up and listen. Knowing the difference between the two is called tact.

From my perspective, you could win many more friends in China by telling them how South Africa has changed from an apartheid state to one where there is majority rule, and how it achieved some degree of success with the Truth and Reconciliation committees, and of course, with Nelson Mandela, who is respected by everyone. This gives your Chinese friends an extra reference point so they can think about what is best for China.

You need freedom of speech first, before you can have a platform from which to persuade and win people over. Freedom of speech doesn’t solve everything, but it does solve the problem of lacking freedom of speech.

Keeping pressure on China, or any other government, can speed change along, even if that pressure comes from outside. Of course change comes from within, but without pressure there will be less motivation/awareness of the need for change. The same hold for the USA. Outside pressure has worked on numerous occasions. It offers “an extra reference point so that they can think about what is best for China”, in your words.

Talking about human rights isn’t about earning goodwill points: it’s about talking about human rights. If you don’t listen to a message on account of the messenger, you are making the mistake, not the messenger. Should we, in effect, shut up about everything simply because we are not Chinese? We are all people from the planet earth. I’m rather picky about who I share the earth with.

When I tell people about SA and how it has changed: human rights, freedom of speech, non-discrimination, most progressive constitution in the world… etc, I invariably end up offending some Chinese people too. Nelson Mandela and Desmond Tutu have already expressed their hope that human rights and freedom of speech would be respected in China.

I accept China doesn’t want to react to outside pressure, but it doesn’t make such pressure useless, nor malicious, nor ignorant.