About China blogosphere, travel, and entrepreneurship

I don’t think you’re using the word “queue” appropriately in this context. What is particularly remarkable about queues in China is precisely how absent to rare they are. In its stead, you have what I often refer to as “a mob of humanity” and that is everywhere. Moreover, while there have been some improvement, it is still largely unruly. With automotive traffic, yes, it is bad too…but I wouldn’t compare it to an ET sighting given that ET sightings are “rare” not “commonplace.”

My experience with queues (or, again, the lack thereof) in the subways is that, despite the clearly marked instructions on “where to wait” and “to let people off before getting on” (xian xia hou shang), the vast majority of people still don’t give a damn. When the doors open, it is a battle to see which side can push harder: those going in or those coming out. This is particularly pronounced during rush hour times when the subways are the fullest and every so often you’ll get someone who didn’t make it out of the train car because there were too many people trying to get out while too many people were trying to cram in. Likewise, you’ll get people who didn’t make it onto the train car because there were too many people trying to get out. A limited time frame (how long the doors remain open) combined with a mob of humanity results in everyone trying to get their’s first and thus at the same time. Is it impatience and inconsideration? Yes. Is it a certain kind of selfishness? Sorta. Is it a failure to see the bigger picture? Yes. Is it how things have come to be the norm in China? That too, yes. Can it change? Of course, with time. Is it changing? Probably not as fast as we’d like.

Yet, as you mentioned, Hong Kong is a good example of a more “orderly” place. Last time I visited, a friend and I had a good laugh when we jokingly shoved and crowded each other while getting on the MTR because we had gotten used to that sort of jostling when boarding the subway. As we walked past a bus stop, we were startled by the sight of Hong Kongers calmly and patiently standing in the straightest, most “genteel” (to borrow David’s term of the day) line. We had become so accustomed to chaos of mainland China that it was as if we had discovered that the South China Tiger really wasn’t extinct.

Taipei is another example. There, the subway have multiple queue lines marked on the subway platforms. People nicely line up and peope nicely wait for all passengers to disembark before embarking.

Both Hong Kong and Taiwan demonstrate that there isn’t some genetic aversion to lining up in the Chinese; it is simply a matter of socio-economic development. As China progresses, standards for public behaviour will inevitably improve. What is seen as “their” impatience is ultimately a call for “us” (those accustomed to more “civilized behaviour”) to be patient.

We also need to remember that there are tons of sociological reasons for the differences in public manners, and not all of them are based upon the aforementioned socio-economic development level. Some habits or norms are rooted in culture. Fortunately for us, the “me first” attitude when it comes to lining up is definitely based in the former and not the latter. As black and white the logic is for queuing, the reality is a perfect shade of grey. As with the subway examples above, lining up nicely is a sure-fire way of increasing your chances of never getting on the subway…simply because other people don’t line up.

Here in Shanghai, we do get some people lining up as they transfer from Line 2 to the northbound Line 1 at People’s Square. Why? The reason is because there are two Line 1 trains, each going to a different terminal station. Those waiting for the train that goes to the farther terminal station (Fujin Lu) are sometimes found waiting in lines on both edges of each platform door. Sounds nice, right? Well, not quite. See, the people who exit the subway and those who take the other train to the nearer terminal station (Shanghai Railway Station) now have a narrower passageway to get off and onto the metro. When the Fujin Lu train comes, all bets are off too. It isn’t as if those who were waiting get to go in first. No, everyone else just mobs the door and piles in regardless of who was waiting or not. People will swoop in from the sides and try to get in front of you regardless of how “civilized” (wen ming) of an example you were being.

That’s just how it is.

If the subways aggravate you, you can forget about queuing up for purchases, especially at fast food restaurants. Tons of foreigners have had the unfortunate experience of waiting patiently in line only to have a local Chinese person walk right up to the counter, completely oblivious to those waiting, and begin ordering. Suffice to say, it leaves a bad taste in their mouth. Do the culprits really care? Not particularly and if Huang Qing gets his way as he recently advised in China Daily, we’ll hear more of these inconsiderate queue-jumpers retort, “so what?”

As for elevators or lifts, I don’t really see packed elevators as something unique to China. It isn’t really common to have lines for lifts in most places in the world anyway so I think that’s pretty much a wash right there.

As for queues at the railway station, I’m surprised you don’t know what that’s about. Aren’t you a Chinese native? Didn’t you grow up in Beijing? There are people called “huang niu” (yellow cow) who basically buy up tickets to resell later. These people are at least an order more annoying than anyone who try to sell you their place in line. Is this a real phenomenon? Yes, it is definitely not fake, and it is particularly pronounced during national holidays when everyone and thier mom wants to travel.

Traffic problems are a result of lax enforcement (or the sheer difficult of enforcement) coupled with the same drive (hah) to “be first” or “get ahead of the pack.” It is, again, every person for themselves when the country has 1.3 billion plus people, especially in dense urban areas with limited public facilities and services. There certainly is an element of supply and demand, but also mixed with “time.” For most people, their time is more important than other people’s time. It doesn’t matter if playing by the rules will save everyone time, it only matters if you save time. There is too much temptation and reason to believe that acting in your own interests is still better than acting in everyone’s interest. That’s part of where people here aren’t able to see the big picture.

I find it amusing that you say “play by the rules and you’l go far.” That is precisely what many Chinese people don’t really grasp or see validated in many aspects of daily life here. Instead, they see plenty of examples where bending or breaking the rules gets people much further. Despite all the efforts of the central government trying to use propaganda and official decrees (i.e. “Line up on the 11th”) to instill “civilization” and “manners” into their citizens, they are often and ultimately the worst example of playing by the rules. They make the rules yet they are sometimes the worst violators with government corruption being an accepted and commonplace reality. Furthermore, it is also about perspectives and it can be reasonably argued that many Chinese simply have short-term vision. When there are so many pressing needs and desires, that’s actually quite understandable…but a long-term vision (like looking at the big picture) will ultimately produce the most benefits. However, we’re all human and being short-sighted is a common flaw. “It doesn’t matter if following the rules will eventually make using the subway easier for everyone, it only matters if I can get on the subway as soon as possible right now! Everyone else can go pound sand as long as I get mine!” Harsh? Maybe, but still true.

“Morally?” Not that there isn’t morality in China but Chinese society exhibits a certain “practicality” more than idealistic notions of right and wrong. What “works” or “what will help me get through this day” is more important than certain ideals and principles. Spend a lot of time and effort doing your own research and writing your own term paper to show that you’ve learned something? Sure, you could do that. But maybe you have a lot of other things to do and your fellow classmates routinely get by with wholesale plagiarism (or maybe your own professor plagiarizes too). In those situations, the temptation to NOT “follow the rules” because really difficult to resist. Why NOT cheat…when everyone else does it?

Is it just different values? Maybe. Maybe getting something done is more important than how its done. Is that a byproduct of culture? Well..that could be argued…

@Kai, I think this is the longest comment I have ever seen in the blogosphere. But totally appreciated. No really. Really!
I agree with your point that Hong Kong and Taiwan present examples that show that manners are not an issue of East vs. West, but more related to the stage of socio-economic development. It wasn’t that long ago that in Hong Kong, people were calmly blowing their noses or clearing their throats (toh taam) out on the pavement after exiting the Star Ferry. Today, I don’t think people existing the Airport Express in Central would be spitting on their way to their office in Exchange Square.
I also think there is a “prisoner’s dilemma” going on as exhibited by the queuing at the Shanghai Metro. If you queue but no one else does, you lose big. If everyone fails to queue, everyone loses medium. But if everyone queues, the everyone wins! This dynamic repeats itself in many ways, small and large, in China. The incentive to “cheat” is short-term gain, and the incentive to “play by the rules” is long-term, mutual gain. I think you have to look carefully for these dynamics in all your interactions in China. Otherwise you might find yourself paid in watermelons, at best…

So the saying that I try to remember all the time is “Be wise as a serpent, and be harmless as a dove.” Watch your back, protect your interests, don’t let people cheat you twice, but focus on finding ways to change the game because eventually, the game will be changed and you will be rewarded!

Elliot: Say what, Ali? Float like a butterfly, sting like a bee?

I couldn’t reach the “watermelons” link at the time of this posting, even with anonymouse so I’m not really sure what you mean by that comment.

@Kai: agree with Elliott, this is the longest comment I’ve ever read.

1. Sorry to hear that you and your friend jokingly shoved the crowd to MTR in Hong Kong, which reminded me that I stopped a peron who wanted to cut into the line just in front of me in Shanghai Hongqiao airport not long ago. I didn’t pay attention to his skin color first but after I told him “please line up” in a cold voice, I noticed that he is definitely not a native Chinese. For one moment, I felt a little embarrassed becasue I was educated that we should be very POLITE to foreign visitors in our country. But now I was a little rude to him.

2. I took the new Metro line in Shanghai Line 6 once early this month. I was amazed to see all people line up in front of the gate patiently watiing until the metro arrived, the door opened. people were too exciting to see the subway and forgot to behave themselves suddently, and . As usual, I was almost the last one to get on it, but I got on it. Anyway, I see the trend that people will get used to line up (now) and get on to bus or subway one after one (in 5 years?).

If you think China is bad, try Jakarta, Indonesia. There are a lot of locals who seem to suffer from some sort of “Baby Suharto Syndrome”. They are the “wannabe VIPs” at the airport who obviously aren’t “VIP” enough to use the VIP terminal, but pay off some immigration officer who will let them walk right past all the immigration queues without even raising an eye-brow from officials whilst tourists queuing up politely stare in disbelief and utter disgust. The immigration official will meet these locals at the gate, take their passports and get them all stamped etc. whilst the “wannabe VIPs” go past immigration and collect their luggage.

Criminal elements do the same thing, naturally. After a recent flight from China to Jakarta I witnessed a bevy of Chinese beauties being extended the same treatment by their “handlers”. It avoids embarassing questions. I’m sure they weren’t visiting Jakarta as tourists and they clearly weren’t business travellers, at least not in the usual sense…

Min: Yes yes, brevity is not my forte. In retrospect, I should’ve just wrote a blog post and organized it properly rather than jot down stream-of-conscious style. I regret I was too enthusiastic in responding to what I thought was a strangely “out-of-touch” post by David.

A clarification is due: My friend and I did NOT shove anyone but ourselves in the Hong Kong MTR. We jokingly shoved EACH OTHER and no one else. We’re not idiots but we do enjoy a good inside joke once in awhile.