By now we all know that a visa extension is no longer a matter of bringing the right identity photos to the Public Security Bureau. What used to be a routine process is now a dangerous lottery, made all the more confusing because different PSBs seem to be following completely different application procedures and demanding different requirements, and the rules may change again next week.
My boyfriend, Chris, is one of the unlucky ones unable to stay in China. He is not a protester or an agitator. He’s teaching second grade, not selling drugs. He was working for a school who has sponsored his visa extensions in the past. He has never overstayed a visa or worked on a tourist visa, but he was not able to extend his visa. I can’t think of anything he’s done that would make him a bad candidate for continued employment and residence in China.
I’m told that visa changes, like everything else in Beijing, is “because of the Olympics”. This connection has not been made clear. Some say expats are security risks, likely to turn the harmonious games into a PR disaster. Others say booting the ESL crowd will free up foreigner-friendly housing, to be rented to Olympic guests at a Western price.
I’m not going to stay in China without Chris, so I’m going back too, as sad as I am to leave Beijing. I feel stupid about leaving, too. Over the last few years, friends and family members have asked me why I want to live in China, and I try to explain the wild excitement of my adopted home. Living in China lets me move between two completely different cultures, and see the perceptions Americans and Chinese have about each other. I don’t like everything in China, of course. I’m not crazy about the subway stampede, and I don’t know why it takes 10 receipts, 20 counters and 30 red stamps to make a purchase. But I’ve tried to be a bridge blogger, even if only in my small circle. For several months, I’ve been blogging Olympics changes and Fuwa sightings for Beijing Olympics Fan! I was invited to be on a few episodes of the BBC’s radio program World: Have Your Say to talk about the amazing progress being made in preparation for the Olympics (I’ve even come close to using that cliche about “China’s coming out party”).
After telling everyone what a long way China has come since they’ve opened their borders, I feel stupid having to explain that I’m coming home because, uh, foreigners have to leave for unexplained reasons. This change in rules is shady, arbitrary and frightening, and after trying to change the perception of China away from this stereotype, I feel like an idiot.
I’m heartbroken that Chris had to leave China, but the visa issues are bigger than my personal story. Many of the foreigners who’ve been unable to get or renew a visa have a lot to offer China. International students are having trouble staying over the summer, and I think foreigners studying Mandarin can contribute so much to international relations, business, everything. Real Chinese fluency is so important for cross-cultural conversation, and it breaks my heart that students who are devoting their time and talent to this language can still be asked to leave. Freelancers, musicians, possible investors, and employees for smaller businesses are also having trouble, or simply coming in on tourist visas, which defeats the whole idea of legitimizing a vague visa system. We all know ESL was due for a bit of a cleanup, but many talented and inspired teachers have been affected, as well as the unqualified drifters. I can’t understand how expelling the foreigners who’ve invested their energy and effort into China helps anyone at all.
When I first saw the Olympics countdown commercials, on CCTV9 in my old Yantai apartment, it was over 800 days to the Beijing Olympics. I’ve eagerly watched it count down, two years, one year, 100 days, and now that there’s less than a month to go, I’m leaving China. The Olympics will be on TV at home, but I don’t know if I’ll remember the Beijing games as more than the reason we had to leave China.
I was crying as Chris and I drove to the brand new Terminal 3 airport, past the new Beijing 2008 banners proclaiming the Olympic slogans Beijing Welcomes You! and One World, One Dream.
Beijing is welcoming someone, I guess. But it’s not us.
Photos courtesy of Meg Stivison at Simpson’s Paradox.
I agree that the tightened policy of issuing/renewing visas has been very poorly communicated and implemented, causing needless confusion and inconvenience to many people that probably would have good things to say about China. However, I do think China’s lack of strict adherence to their own policies in the past effectively spoiled most of the people being affected right now. That said, can we really blame the Chinese for their past leniency and flexibility? I do grant that you’re unlikely to get the comfortably sympathy from the authorities, which only makes the situation more aggravating.
It sucks that you and your boyfriend have to return home. I reckon the idea of going back to get a visa to return isn’t something you guys are willing to entertain, but doing so should not be a problem given that he indeed has sponsorship from his school. I know of quite a few people having recently come to Shanghai without much problems so maybe Beijing is different. Maybe the school he teaches at can sponsor his roundtrip ticket in addition to his re-entry visa?
This whole visa fiasco is just so common in China – it happens in all aspects – religion, business, culture, etc. It’s all so illogical and haphazard. Put your faith in China and you are guaranteed to be disappointed.
Kai Pan, I think the point (or at least one of the points) is that the solution is no better than the past leniency. Same chunky-handed handling of a problem that calls for inventive thinking and creative new rules.
The past leniency was inconsistent and a more robust system would not have been out of place, but the new system is also implemented arbitrarily. My visa was renewed recently by the school with absolutely no problems, which surprised me no end, since my actual passport expires within three months. We told the PSB and asked if I could still get a one month tourist visa tacked on the end after the (literally one month) work visa expires, and they indicated no problem. Another South African had to leave China because in Guangdong they wouldn’t renew his visa, yet here I am staying for the games when even the old rules would have seen me packing. My school might have better guanxi than thou.
So you are sponsored for and paid by your school, which is a Chinese government agency?
Very interesting, considering your comments elsewhere on this blog.
it’s a private, international company. but i have my doubts occasionally :)
I agree it is a bad situation, and I have to go home as well. I know it is all crazy but it is not that bad to enjoy home for a month and come back after the Olympics. I understand there are principles here but China is still an evolving country and they are SO nervous about the Olympics. I wouldn’t give up on China just because of some questionable bureaucratic rules.
I feel sorry for your frustration, but at least some Lao Wai can now understand the frustrations we experience every day during our stays in your countries. Although this offers no condolence: uscis.gov and homeoffice.gov.uk had done much worse. Try google 2009 H1-B visa lottery and you know what I’m talking about.
Since diplomacy is reciprocal, or at least it has to be that way on paper, if your country does all it can to limit Chinese influx, then at least as a rule, even though not strictly enforced, China would have to do the same to you guys. All these can achieve is an additional cost to the business across the border, or a not so effective obstacle to the flattening of the world.
So here’s what you can do: write to your congress representatives and complain about the lost business due to their silly immigration policies.
Getting a visa to western countries can be a pain, but China generally benefits from having lax visa laws which is not true to the same degree for western countries.
The rules are likely just to change back to normal after the olympics (maybe a bit stricter) – i think its an overly harsh security precaution rather than a diplomatic move.
Right On!!! I am a USA citizen with a Filipino wife and adopted child. Even they were refused a tourist visa to the USA. Visa granting to the USA is simply at the whim of the low level bureaucrat who does the interview.
I agree that US H1-B policies are insane, patronizing, absurd, and possibly criminal, but at least they are in place, clear, unanimous, and open (in terms of information). I like many others am now in CHina on a tourist visa because I cannot get another, but what bothers me, and many others, the most is not the new strictness. Much as I have adored the lax life of ignoring Chinese laws as a laowai, we should be more scrutinized, and we should be better examples of our home countries. That said, I think the real problem is the lack of transparency. We all heard through the grapevine that visas would become an issue around the Games, but i was always rumor and hearsay and, to be fair, it still kind of is. I haven’t looked extremely hard, but I’ve done a little searching and I cannot find any official documents about the new policy. I have e-mails from AmCham, BritCham, Embassies, etc. but nothing from the gov’t itself. I feel like the PRC is trying to legitimize an “it’s up to us” policy. Add to that previous posters comments about different PSBs having different regulations, and it just further proves that China’s bureaucracy is as alive and well as ever. It’s crazy, and I want to stay, but more than that, I want to know HOW to stay. Give me some guidelines, an application, something, it can even be in Chinese, if I can’t understand it, I’ll have a friend look at it, but come on, China is looking at the Olympics to (at least in part) legitimize itself in the eyes of the first world and its citizens. In light of that this seems a pretty bizarre and stupid place to crack the whip so ambiguously.
Just my two fen…
@CnInDC
Its a fair point to say that US immigration policy is a pain in the butt for talented foreigners and I feel it is extremely short-sighted for the US not to open the doors much wider for people from all over the world. But in fact the #1 and #2 sources of PhD students today are from Tsinghua and Beijing University undergrad programs, with UCBerkeley being the #3 source. So in fact plenty of people are coming. And why is there such a focus by Chinese people and the Chinese government on reciprocity? Why should the Chinese government reciprocate a bad US policy on immigration? If the US is being short-sighted on immigration, should China be as well?
I’m sincerely interested in understanding how we can best go beyond the themes of “You (the West) humiliated us (Chinese) every day and also for the last 200 years, so we need to reciprocate that behavior to you when we are capable of doing so. Only through the power to deliver reciprocity to the West, we can get the respect we deserve.” What can Westerners do? Especially those who have a sincere heart for China?
elliottng,
My original post was indeed about going beyond. I believe the fundamental issue here is the protectionism sentiment in the US and Europe. Your own country’s work visa regulation is the root of all the difficulties you’re experiencing right now. That’s why I suggest you contact your congress rep and vent the frustration. Please kindly remind them that trade goes both ways.
I do share your view that retaliation is silly but also think reciprocity may exist for a reason. At least that’s the norm in international relations and has nothing to do with the victim sentiment you mentioned. Turning the table to the Chinese government and blame it for not unilaterally easing its visa policies reminds me of my last car accident. A nice lady hit my parked car in the parking lot while I was shopping inside. Then her insurance company refused to compensate by saying, “But our car was damaged too!”. Since there’s no court mediating such conflicts between nations, using reciprocity as a leverage makes sense, at least temporarily. That being said, I don’t even think China is in practice reciprocating the US immigration law. That’s the very reason you guys have so many leeways while we don’t. In this sense, Chinese government may even deserve some credit for being more pro-business and proactive.
“Your own country’s work visa regulation is the root of all the difficulties you’re experiencing right now.”
One of my problems with the lack of visas is the total lack of information about it. You say it’s retaliation, and it may be. Or is it because, as John says above, “China is still an evolving country and they are SO nervous about the Olympics”? Is it harder to obtain a visa because we might be security threats for the Olympics? Or is it what Kai Pan suggested, that China is tightening the visa policy, to make consistant rules for all applicants? Or just what Cerebus says, I don’t have enough guanxi to get things done?
Meg,
First, please understand that visa to any country is NOT a privilege, and the host country can grant it and take it away at will. Any Chinese student who had queued in front of the US Embassy Beijing had already been well educated about this.
Second, I’ve never said the visa “crackdown” is retaliation. When I said “Your own country’s work visa regulation is the root of all the difficulties you’re experiencing right now.”, what I meant is that the visa rules are made out of bilateral agreements between countries. Remember that you guys can just hop on an airplane and visit EU for 3 months without the tedious paperwork? The reason that you guys can do that is because US grants the same to those EU citizens. For the same reason, China’s work visa rule for US citizens is almost the same as the US work visa rule for China citizens, because of the reciprocal diplomacy and treaties/agreements. It’s the US that wants to protect its labor market and that’s why you got the similar on the China side.
Also I’ll have to say that the lack of information is NOT part of the current problem. The information is loud and clear: that if you enter China on a temp visa you cannot expect it being extended year after year after year. I believe the reason that they don’t deliberate the extension procedure and criteria is because:
1. If they do so it defeats the purpose of a “temp” visa because people can then exploit the rules and turn it into a permanent visa, as you did before.
2. They still need the wiggle room.
This is also true for the US visa. My parents visited US for many times and even though they wanted to stay longer each time we deliberately did NOT extend their visa for another 6 months because rumor has it that extending visa could potentially accumulate bad “karma”, therefore could jeopardize their next visa. US Embassy never acknowledges such rule ever exists, yet from many accounts of the past experience, we know it’s there so we’ll have to spare the return tickets to play by the book.
So the question is, how hard is it for you guys to play by the book? If you want to stay longer then apply for a work visa. Otherwise just go back and apply for a temp visit and stay another 6 months or a year.
Without going into the subject of reciprocity, I do believe Meg’s boyfriend, Chris, was on an F visa. If he wasn’t, I hope she can make that clear sooner than later as what most people are hearing is that Z-visas (work visas) have not been affected by the new (if uneven) enforcement of Chinese visa policies. We also know that foreigners are NOT allowed to legally work in China on F visas, whose primary purpose is a business trip and not conventional employment. It sounds like Chris was operating on an F-visa and the school that employed him merely provided him the letters to say “oh, we invited him.”
As common and prevalent as this practice was up until now, I agree that the rules were always clear on this point and anyone who persisted with that arrangement should have accepted that they were treading a fine line with the authorities, always at the mercy of their ignorance or leniency. Furthermore, Chinese schools and “employers” often violated the law by asking foreigners to operate on F-visas, fully aware that they were not technically allowed to do so. Many do this because getting a Z-visa is indeed substantially more complicated and,more importantly, costly.
So, that’s…
1 part foreigner who isn’t able to easily navigate the confusing visa bureaucracy and information;
1 part Chinese employer who can’t be bothered to deal with the formalities of formal, legal employment of foreigners; and
1 part tightening of visa policy enforcement due to, perhaps, the impending Olympic Games…
…and you have a recipe for a precarious situation that just might bite you in the butt.
Meg is in that situation. It sucks, but it reminds me of when a police officer pulls you over and gives you a traffic ticket. Claim you didn’t know you were breaking the law and they’ll tell you that ignorance of the law is not an excuse. Complain about why the officer doesn’t catch everyone else that is breaking the law and they’ll tell you that it doesn’t mean you get to be excused. Yes, spotty, uneven enforcement is maddening when you’re the victim of the day. Unfortunately, that’s life.
Hopefully, Meg and Chris will be able to reconcile themselves with this inconvenient turn of events and still remember why they liked China in the first place.
@Kai Pan
It also would be interestingto know how many chinese schools and business are benefitting from this F visa. Can they support and Z visa application? My school can not, so they use that back door. Not all schools in China can have foreigners invited, even more those who can they have a quote, that probably is related to their level… and their guangxi.
CnInDC,
Thank you again for your comments. Its really helpful to understand some of the attitudes that must be taken into account when having an East-West dialogue. For example, here are the sentiments I get from your comment:
1. Chinese people are less open to hear Westerners’ complaints or criticisms because they feel they have been treated unfairly by the West in the past and even in the present.
2. Chinese people also feel that Westerners should focus on fixing their own problems in the West before they come seeking to solve Chinese problems.
3. In international relations, the family of nations have not been governed by any commonly held principles. Therefore, only self-sufficiency (in grain, in foreign reserves, in oil, etc.) and power can protect Chinese national interests from the countries (like the US) who currently hold power.
I personally don’t think that the visa crackdown was caused by anything but a bureaucratic overreaction to security concerns about the Olympics.
There is a huge, lost opportunity by the Chinese government to project soft power by welcoming the people of the world to experience the talent, the warmth, and the goodwill of the Chinese people. Many Westerners who end up in China are extremely rare and self-selected in their interest in China. The Chinese government should be cultivating people like Meg and Stick as ambassadors to the world. Meg’s story shows this lost opportunity at a micro-level.
It is in everyone’s best interest to help the Chinese government understand and execute well in this area of soft power, which comes through engagement — through media, language, and culture. Maybe the Olympics are not the best time to be addressing this since there is such obvious security concerns.
I agree with CNinDC’s comments about our visa process. I have heard that the Beijing US Embassy is significantly less friendly to people than the Beijing UK Embassy and the Beijing Canadian Embassy. Is that true? And if so, why? As an US Citizen, I felt embarrassed that Chinese friends were treated with disrespect by embassy staff. What a terrible way to introduce people to our country. Fortunately, my friend was forgiving and didn’t judge all of us Americans from that one embassy officer.
Um, Elliott, am I missing a comment somewhere? I don’t see where you got sentiments #1, 2, or 3 from the previous comments I see from CnInDC…
elliottng,
I meant none of 1/2/3.
Let me state my point one more time (please also refer to my response to Meg). Temp visa are designed for tourists and business travelers and should not be abused for anything else. When you guys want to stay longer on a teaching job in China you should be allowed to do so on a work visa, not on a temp visa that needs extension every year. However in order for you guys to easily obtain a work visa, your own country should also ease the heavy-handed restrictions on issuing work visa to foreign citizens. I think that’s the root of the problem. There’s nothing wrong with the visa rules, it’s the protectionism line of thinking behind the rules that makes things so difficult.
For example, currently for a US employer to legally hire a foreign citizen, normally s/he must be willing to:
1. Offer the comparable or more wage than that of a US worker, but pay on forefront about $5000 extra on legal fees and charges for the paper-pushing from the lawyers to the Department of Labor, then to USCIS, that is, without any guarantee s/he’ll be able to hire the person
2. Wish the applicant win the annual visa quota lottery, while the quota is changed every year and must be approved by the congress
3. If the foreign worker does not already hold a valid work visa (e.g., a new hire instead of a job change), the employer must wait for at least 6 months (from April 1 when the applications are accepted, to Oct 1 when the visa takes effect) for the worker to start working.
Does the complexity of a China work visa application even come close to this? Again, I’m not saying Chinese rules can’t be further simplified, but the framework of the rules are based on bilateral treaties and agreements. Without changing the bilateral agreements, all you can get are leeways that can be easily taken away like this time.
I agree that the current visa “crackdown” was caused by security concerns about the Olympics. If you watch news in China you’ve probably already noticed that the China’s domestic Olympic propaganda has been dramatically toned down from wanting a most successful Olympic to a merely safe one. The reality is there, that a most successful Olympic is already beyond our reach. The people they wanted to impress the most, the western media and the general public from the western countries, are impossible to please. So they go for the next best one, that at least it’s safe, no ugly scenes (or at least not a major one), and the Chinese can enjoy the party all by themselves. I’ve heard this before from the Chinese people around me and think it may have a point: “大不了办成全运会”, or, “At least we can turn this into a national sports event”.
Whether it’s a bureaucratic overreaction is open to debate. Ironically, I still remember Michael Bloomberg criticizing such overreaction in Charlie Rose, saying the reason why the US airports’ alert level can never fall off orange is because people on the top dare not take the chance of anything bad could happen. Personally I think it’s quite understandable, and I prefer a government that takes precautions over one that’s not prepared. I just hope the current visa situation won’t be as permanent as the alert levels and won’t cause long-lasting damages.
I also agree the current visa tightening hurts many good people, but in practice it’s very difficult to weed good out of bad. When decision has to be made it has to be made. Please don’t feel insulted when your well-intended advice is not adopted. I’m sure it’s been taken into account though.
Thank you for this explanation. I understand your point about it being about bilateral agreements between the US and China and the context of a high degree of labor market protectionism on the US side.
I am sympathetic to your point about the Western public being “impossible to please.” This is a strong sentiment and deserves to be better understood by the West.
Thank you for the understanding. Just to give you an idea on how bad the protectionism has become, a Bolivian friend of mine recently left his 6 figure income job at one of the most affluent neighborhoods in DC metro area because? His kids were persistently called names at school and nothing can be done to stop it. And that’s supposed to be one of the top performing schools in the states. I don’t blame the kids, but what about the parents and the media? The local media practically blame everything on immigration and free trade, from foreclosure, deteriorating neighborhoods and services, to crime. Then all these talks about renegotiating NAFTA.
I don’t think my worry is far-reaching at all. Sooner or later this wave of protectionism will come back and bite you own country. As expats living or lived in a foreign country you guys should take on the task to educate your fellow citizens about a few basic economics principles, that supply and demand of the market is the basic driving force behind the immigration and salaries, that at $30 per hour your low skill manufacturing jobs cannot possibly support a competitive industry, that if you block the free influx of high-skilled workers the companies will outsource the jobs altogether and you don’t even get to tax the income, etc etc.
As for the friendliness comparison between the US, UK, and Canadian consulates, the extreme rudeness usually comes from the Chinese employees in the consulates, no matter which country it is. And I don’t think we care about the friendliness that much. When I apply for a visa all I need is a visa. However the US consulates are assigned the impossible mission to determine who is more likely to return to the applicants’ home country. Given the current salary gap I’d say 95% student visa applicants would stay in the US given the chance. However the US doesn’t want to take that many foreign workers yet doesn’t want to shut down the visa office either. This turns the visa issuing to a random shooting. The visa officer takes one second looking at the applicant, another second on the thick stack of documents carefully prepared, then says yes or no depending on the weather or the mood. OK I’ve exaggerated a little bit but you got the idea. On the other hand, UK and Canada actually think they need high skilled foreign workers and foreign students may potentially fulfill that demand while paying some extra tuitions to support their higher education, so as long as you’re a legitimate student, got the admission letter and money, you’ll most likely pass.
@CniNDC:
“Temp visa are designed for tourists and business travelers and should not be abused for anything else. When you guys want to stay longer on a teaching job in China you should be allowed to do so on a work visa, not on a temp visa that needs extension every year.”
The model teacher’s contract issued by the State Administration of Foreign Experts’ Affairs is for one year only. Therefore even Foreign Experts at top universities must renew their Z visas each year. Mainland China doesn’t really issue anything other than temporary visas. AFAIK Permanent Resident cards are usually only issued to multi-million yuan investors, stalwart Communists, etc.
There is not such close reciprocity in Visa issuing… because what benefits a country (western protectionism due to avalanche from poorer countries -people who goes there to stay) does not benefit China (net “migrant exporter”), while opening in China (cheaper qualified (teachers, students…) visitors -mostly are temporary) favours national economy and education levels.
If you believe the USA Embassy in Beijing is rude to applicants, visit the USA Embassy in Manila to see real rudeness! One time I was sitting at a bar in Manila and could hear two USA Embassy employees bragging that they both turned down 100% of their applicants that day!
Meg, sorry to know that Stick has to go back to US becasue of visa. I know how much you guys want to stay for the Olympics. That’s really sad.
I agree to what John suggested, that the government is just too worrying about the Olympics. They would rather take the principle of “宁可杀错，不要放过”. I even believe that this is a universal principle that every government applies for its homeland security. It is not just reciprocity. Although I have many Chinese friends are in the same situation as Stick in getting US visa.
Thanks Min! I am trying to look on the bright side and enjoy the visit with family, but it breaks my heart to miss the Olympics.
Have you considered going to the grey market and enlisting a “visa consultant”? I know they used to advertise on That’sBJ (now The Bejinger?) It’s been awhile but there seem to be a few still advertising: http://www.thebeijinger.com/index.php?a=5&b=230&page=3&c=
Back in 2005, I paid 600 RMB to facilitate a 6 month work visa even after mine had expired (your mileage will vary).
Dave – as far as I know all these visa agencies have been closed down. No contact with most of them. Those that still operate are doing so at insane prices. I have a relative who was told to pay 10.000Yuan for a 6 month business visa – the plane ticket home should be cheaper.
However, I totally understand the actions of the government, although information has been scarce and opaque to the extent of one considering the legislative bodies indeed really confused about what to do. Until now it has been possible to get any kind of Visa, more or less legit through hawkers for reasonable cost and stick around in China for as long as necessary. No developed countries has so lax visa realities. All countries are getting increasingly paranoid due to terror risks and etc. China included of course.
And since everyone is able to go home to their own country and apply for and get a Visa I really dont see the big problem. I am positive that those who really want China of course will come back although they cant stay for now, those who dont want China, but merely have stayed in China because it is convenient, fun, good for parties and etc probably wont come back. So maybe it is actually a healthy process for China to get rid of some of all the foreign parasites who are in China only to take advantage of things and NOT out of any interest or ability to add some positive development.
I mean Beijing is labelled all over Asia as party city number one, a total vice city full of drugs, pro’s and heavily drinking foreigners all over the city – thats in part what makes Beijing so incredibly fun. This is certainly not the image the CPC wants for the Capital city, especially not when the whole worlds attention is centered on Beijing. They need to clean up to save face. They do that by getting rid of the risk groups; students, young foreigners, freelancers, pro’s, possible drug dealers and etc.
Although I ofcourse feel sorry for all my friends who are leaving for the summer It still makes sense to me why they have to. And as long as I know they are welcome back in a couple of months I have no problem with it.
CnInDC – Respectfully when you say ‘lack of information is NOT part of the current problem’ you have no idea what you’re talking about. You go on to justify that statement by saying that the previous rules weren’t enforced and now are being enforced. That is only very slightly true. As someone who travels for business on a multi-entry F and went through numerous attempts and methodologies in numerous jurisdictions to get a simple renewal, it was NOT just a case of ‘now the rules are strictly enforced and they were always documented and are well understood’.
Yes, some of the things (specific documents) that had always been listed in the rules but were generally ignored were now in force – I give you that for sure – but that is only part of the story. But the rules literally changed from week to week with no announcement and went WAY off the documented regulations. Suddenly a new document that was never EVER mentioned in any rules or forms or documents was required. Suddenly new limits began to be put in place that were not documented anywhere except when you stood in front of the PSB clerk and they tossed your documents back. When the very form had a multi-entry tick box (and all the instructions clearly said was possible) the clerk would tell you “you can never tick that box – no multi-entries at all”. Like George W saying ‘we don’t torture’, public statements have been absolutely laughable in their falsehood, saying “rules haven’t changed all visas are being issued as normal”. Rules have been radically different from one jurisdiction to another – for some time some first tier cities (Shanghai etc.) were still sort-of adhering to normal rules and at least creating work-arounds at an increased level of document submission, yet others would have dramatically different policies (Shenzen apparently became next to impossible to get any documents approved). As others have posted the proof here and every news story has confirmed – the experiences were radically different, the policy was inconsistent, confused, and information about it impossible to pin down.
Just a few days ago a new policy went into effect without warning that no family members will be approved for residency papers until October. So if you are granted permission to come to China to work on properly applied for and documented residence permit, your wife and children can’t even start doing the paperwork to follow you for 2 months.
Ah yes the elementary school propaganda machine was efficient – “Yes, the C.R. was bad, but still all china’s problems go back to western colonial abuses and Mao was only 30% wrong!”… and so I know that drives many to think this is only just desserts for foreigners. Sure the system was widely abused before (I agree it was in principle although I doubt the leniency was causing any real damage… most of the part-timer-ESL tourist-visa cheaters probably could have gotten real visas anyway and not basically creating economic value through tourist-type consumption…) And I’m SURE it sucks to apply to the paranoid-psychotic Bush administration US government for a Visa – any Chinese or any other nationality have my complete sympathy. Believe me as one of those mega-business-travelers that’s hopped between 30 countries or something I wish we all had happy friendly open borders for all. But back on-topic, you are especially completely wrong to think that lack of information was not a problem.
At least now it seems that new situation has settled a bit and most people by default understand the situation: Visas ONLY issued in home countries, some countries are on a secret blacklist for no-visas-at-all, oh and pretty much by the calendar it’s virtually no visas at ALL for ANYBODY anyway until October unless you’re close personal friends with Grandpa Wu. Until recently all this had to be figured out blind through trial and error, hence the worlds frustration and the fact that Beijing hotels and travel agents are at a fraction of the occupancy that they expected.
Dear ZaiJian,
Again I feel sorry for your frustration. But changes cause frustration and that’s what you get if you happen to be caught on the frontline of the changes. If I were you I’d consider if I can just delay traveling to China till all the dust settle down. If not, I should think harder from the visa office’s point of view, and ask myself why must I travel at this sensitive time, what’s the urgency and how I can prove that I’m the last person in the world that would ever cause any trouble at the Olympic Games, just as I’ve done at the US Consulate to prove I’m nowhere even close to a jihadist.
Please understand that it’s always the applicant’s responsibility to provide sufficient proofs and the visa office have every right to demand for more documents when they’re in doubt. Such extra documents are seldom officially listed anywhere because they don’t know what they’ll need beforehand. The following is from the US Embassy Beijing’s website:
“The above items should not be considered an exhaustive list and presentation of these documents does not guarantee visa issuance. Be prepared to explain to the visa officer and present evidence regarding why you are going to the US and why you will return to China.”
This line may have not been included in the China Embassy’s website but since the visa rules are indeed tightening, as a frequent international traveler you should know better.
For example, When the USCIS changed rules on issuing visa in the bordering countries’ consulates I delayed my travel until I gathered sufficient information on what they’d ask for on top of the simple list of documents I’ve already prepared. Also nowhere on the US Embassy website can you find the rule that if I’m inviting my parents to visit me in the US I should provide my tax return forms but from the accounts of the past experience (I’d imagine at least one application package was tossed out of the window) that indeed had been demanded for so I dutifully prepared it. I gather my information not just from the US Embassy Beijing but also from websites like mitbbs etc.
On the positive side, you may want to share your visa experience, esp. what’s the extra document they demanded, with your fellow expats in China so they can be better prepared, like what we’ve been doing for a long time among overseas Chinese.
Just on the “30% wrong” part, my 75 years old mother (and many of her peers) firmly believes Mao was at least 90% right and she excuses him of any wrong-doing even though she wasn’t easy during the cultural revolution. One of her arguments was that if not for Mao she’d be married out at the age of 15 and would never have gotten a job that can provide her with financial independence and an equal voice within the family. But then she despises and grades Deng Xiaoping below 0, partly because she thinks Deng is as dictatorial as Mao (considering Hu Yaobang and Zhao Ziyang’s fate), and mostly because (I guess) the several hundred Yuan she saved over 20 years out of her 60 yuan something per month salary was instantly down the drain during Deng’s inflation years. I won’t attribute her opinion as the result of propaganda because she firmly rejects the sweet talks from Deng’s propaganda machine.
What I want to say is, things can be a little bit more complicated than it appears.
That’s actually a great comment about Mao, despite how much I hate the idiot for starving half the country to death its good to hear things like this, makes life in China that little bit better – if you don’t know what I mean you haven’t been here long enough!
About starving half the country to death part: my mother had 11 brothers and sisters, 9 died out of hunger and diseases, all before Mao came to power. I had three siblings, all live and kicking, and my older brother was born in 1960, the height of the 3 year famine. And aren’t the majority of the red guards born or raise during the famine and don’t they still have such a nostalgia memory of their youth? If they weren’t complaining, who are you to judge?
I agree with most of what you have said, except that visa’s don’t always need to be applied for in one’s home country. I am a USA citizen and have applied for and granted Chinese visas in both the Philippines and Malaysia. Interestingly the permissible length of stay was different in both countries, and the Malaysian Embassy would only permit single entry but the Philippine Embassy would permit double entry, although multiple entry was indicated as possible on both applications.
I can relate after flying to Shenzhen to process from a F visa to Z only to find out that one document was incorrect and that a Z visa would not be issued. At the end of the day current changes are a stark reminded that we are only guests here to witness the ‘economic’ and ‘social’ miracle of China unfold before our eyes.
Exactly! Chris and I chose Beijing to watch the amazing changes unfolding, (for the the Olympics and China in general) I just never dreamed that changes in political climate would affect two homebody English teachers.
CNinDC, thanks for your comments. Can we talk via email? I noticed you didn’t put a real email address in.
Real email included.
That’s quite a non-sequitur.
Think beyond this one time visa incident… Think something larger, like NAFTA, Schengen Agreement, etc. Given the vast amount of goods and services traded across the border, isn’t it odd that the exchange of personnel is so disproportionally tightly controlled? This is not just about China. I used to work in a team that Belgians are the majority. They complained as hard as we do.
now, it’s a special time for great china.The success of 2008 Beijing Olympics is the most important thing.I think the visa problem will be solved later.may your husband get visa!
Why should the US bear the brunt of the criticism for China changing its visa policy? I think it’s actually relatively easier for Americans to get a visa to come to China than for people from other countries.
Lack of information was a problem when the L and F visa changes were issued though–I was at the NY consulate getting my Z visa just after the changes were made, and NO ONE knew about them. This is a different problem than just not knowing additional documents the visa officer may ask for–it was a total communications failure. They literally changed it mid day on a Friday, and didn’t have the new rules on the consulate website before opening their doors the following Monday, nor did they make any announcement ahead of time that changes were coming. And these new rules weren’t for documents some people might need, but what every F and L visa applicant would definitely need to show.
On the other hand, I think all us foreigners in China should have long been aware that our F visas couldn’t be renewed/extended past July–I had known that since January.
“On the other hand, I think all us foreigners in China should have long been aware that our F visas couldn’t be renewed/extended past July–I had known that since January.”
Yes, I had heard rumors that the visa situation had changed, but when we asked our reliable employers about ‘net rumors, we were assured that we wouldn’t be affected. Chris was promised a switch to a Z visa and had already gotten the physical exam when he found out he wouldn’t be able to stay.
So Chris opted not to go back home and return on a company-sponsored Z visa? Was it an issue of cost or unexpected inconvenience?
Yes, we do have an option to be re-invited and return in September. I don’t know if we’ll come back then (I didn’t re-sign with my school because I don’t think we will). It’s partly the surprise costs of a trip home and partly a feeling that our life in China may feel secure to us, but it relies on short-term visas that may not be extended. I know a lot of people have done the “visa vacation” over August and come back, and I don’t mean to say what is right for everyone. For Chris and me, returning to a precarious visa situation doesn’t feel very good.
I reread that and it sounds like we’re never coming back to China! We’ll probably return when the visa setup is more stable and understandable, maybe in a year or two.
For foreigners, a Z visa is pretty much as stable as it gets (far more legit and stable than working on an F visa). Since it sounds like Chris’s school was down to switch him to a Z visa, I don’t see what “precarious visa situation” remains or what you guys have any lingering doubt or apprehension.
Of course, I grant that maybe I’m being insensitive to how these events caught you guys by surprise or severely unsettled you guys. From my perspective, I just thought this possibility was easily anticipated. Given what we’ve discussed here, I do hope you guys will take a deep breath and evaluate the situation:
1. He had to go back and already has.
2. His school offered to switch him to a Z-visa, which is the best visa you could reasonably with durations of a year or more and completely legal employment with government protections.
3. He can return after the Olympics (or immediately since there is no rule against issuing Z-visas during the Olympics).
The cost of flying back does indeed suck, but that’s why I asked earlier if the schools were down to reimburse you guys for the airfare. Many schools in China hiring foreigners include airfare in the compensation package. If he’s down to return on a Z visa, you may not even have to leave China before being reunited.
For months and weeks leading up to it, Chris’ school told him no problem, this won’t affect you, we can get you a Z, it’s already in the works, we have good relationships with the PSB, we will handle everything, and then suddenly he didn’t have enough time left on his F to get a Z. Apparently the lead time changed. He was offered an invite back after the Olympics and a Z visa in September.
It seems foolhardy to go back into the situation, kind of like getting back together with someone who says this time will be different. Maybe in a different school or a different city a visa renewal would go smoothly. If time shows that things really have changed, we will think about returning, but right now I’ll have “but we could get kicked out at any minute!” hanging over my head. Yes, it’s an overreaction and I don’t really expect the police show up in the middle of the night and deport us, but I do feel differently about how stable and secure my Chinese life is.
I reckon the school was as confused or unprepared as you guys were. If it was just that, I’d give them another chance. Z-visas are flash. Remember, part of the excitement of living in China is the thrill of danger! ;) Cheers and best of luck. Don’t go back and play WoW with Elliott all day.
Our company could help you to do the visa extention in China, if you need such service, pls pay attention to the following items.
you can contact me: Tel: 010-80814113, 15011308169,
Msn: zhou_qiang_qiang@hotmail.com, QQ:381375988
Tourist Visa (L Visa) Extension
A. L visa extension, 0-entry within one month
B. L visa extension, 1-entry within one month
Materials needed
A. The original passport
B. One 2-inch photo
C. The original ‘Registration form of temporary residence’
D. Bank deposit (you should deposit 100 US dollars for one day stay)
E. Chinese visa or residence permit application form to be filled in and stamped with
the company’s seal
Processing time: 7 working days
——————————————————————————–
Business Visa (F visa) Extension
A. F visa extension, 0 or 1-entry within 3 month
B. F visa extension, 0, 1, 2 or multi-entry within 6 month
Materials needed
A. The original passport
B. One 2-inch photo
C. The original ‘Registration form of temporary residence’
D. Chinese visa or Residence permit application form to be filled in and stamped with the
company’s seal
I am also feeling the same sad emotion leaving china coz of the new visa rules. anyway, I fall in love to china that is what I knew, from the days of my stay there to day of leaving the place. I really love the place… no matter what, I will come back and kiss my beloved china (second homeland) and looks forward for more fruitful and blessed years in there.
Denis, I know how you feel! China really is my adopted home.
An excellent deconstruction of East West perspectives in your comments Eliot. Superb.
I just like to offer a general observation and caution. Many countries have a great number of people employed to monitor blogs and other communications. They also participate in the discussions. I do not think I have to spell out the purpose with this. I actually find it quite entertaining trying to figure out who they are. Obvious for most, but just in case; do not offer identifiable email addresses and do definitely not engage in private telephone or personal discussions. And do not exhaust yourself arguing against people who have all the time in the world to write the final word. Please be careful out there!
Ah…you are talking about the infamous 50-cent parties…I would be surprised if this humble, English language blog warrants to attention of the astroturfing 50-centers out there. But it is always a possibility…especially when we achieve our glorious future!
Well,
http://advocacy.globalvoicesonline.org/2008/07/24/china-another-popular-blog-site-shut-down-for-the-olympics/
The “truth” is out there
;)
Hmm. I know this is coming. Labeling people of different opinions and perspectives is such a typical cultural revolution practice. So you see, people and their way of thinking are not that different. Anyway I won’t shy away from dumping my observations.
Now on Luke Gedeon’s China’s new found power of ambiguity. I’d be happily flattened if I were that one China official who invented the game. However I tend to think the situation is more likely that the boss just vaguely ordered the visa officers to send home possible trouble makers, and the visa officers were acutely aware if some guy make a scene at the Olympic Games the computer system could easily find out who in the consulates issued the visa so down the drain his/her career in the foreign ministry. If you are that visa officer, what would you do?
Hi Meg
I have the same problem as you, but I was able to get a 2 month F visa in Hong Kong 2 weeks ago through a Korean travel agency. Perhaps you can do like this and get a new visa or an extension after the olympics.
I can provide you the address and contact info if you need.
Good Luck
Hi Fran
Im an indonesian currently in Guangzhou. Yesterday i have applied for the business visa but they reject my application.
Can you provide me with the Korean Travel agent you told me about?What are the requirements?
How much is the cost?
Really appreciate your help.
Thank you
The difference between most western countries visa rules and the Chinese ‘rules’ is that China doesn’t have and rules at all. If they had proper rules to begin with instead of FORCING people to do the wrong thing so that there is always an excuse to kick them out then none of these problems would have ever existed in the first place. At least western countries are transparent with their rules and the rules have been made for good reason instead of paranoia.
Not only this but the west DOES NOT need cheap unskilled illegal Chinese labor in their countries, and they don’t need 100% of the available university places to be taken by Chinese who bugger off home with their newly learned skills instead of using them to benefit the host country. China on the other hand NEEDS NEEDS NEEDS foreign teachers to teach English, they NEED foreign investment, they NEED foreign ideas and technology – without these things their ‘development’ will stop dead.
With these unstable and erratic visa ‘rules’, businesses, teachers, investors, etc, are not likely to invest their time money or effort in the country when everything they work on can be taken away at the whim of some old man in a Stalinist building who hasn’t walked down the street in 10 years or talked to anyone outside of the party.
One world, one dream, but only when I say so.
Yeah, the US immigration law is so clear and well defined that we all need to pay big bucks for a lawyer to deal with it.
Ok, we get it. It was hard for you to get your US visa and so everyone else should have a difficult time too.
I can clearly see that many expats are showing maturity, patience, understanding, and not unexpectedly, some degree of disappointment too.
That being said, acting like a crying baby is not helping anyway. I’ve read quite a few Chinese newspaper articles criticizing some Chinese responding to flight cancellations (shouting, demanding, angrily agitated, etc), and contrast it with that from the calmness of a typical westerners. I appreciate the Chinese writers’ intention but then I say to myself, “Not everyone. They’re not that different either…”
CnInDC,
china government even makes obstacles against her citizens which i have felt upset ever since i entered in china. imagine can this government may be merciful to grant ease at application bye foreigners for anytype of visas while it is so rude aginst its own citizens. now even russian and indian visas can be obtained more easily. pls mind that nationalism have caused many countries to stay at stage where they were and even caused move forward. be sure and i am very sure of it china will have to amend this stupid regulation and will make amendmendts soon or later. nobody needs china, but china needs labor and investment indeed and poor people of china can only be cotributed this way. regards to all..
1. Western visa and immigration procedures can be confusing as well. The bureaucratic-speak that typically permeates anything the government touches is often one, but not the only, reason. Foreigners to the West have just as much difficulty making heads or tails of the countless rules and regulations as foreigners to China. I will, however, grant that the West is qualitatively more transparent in the dissemination of critical information…but by no means perfect. Still, connecting that with China “forcing” people to do the wrong thing is a pretty lousy assertion. That is not true at all. People need to take responsibility for their own decision to either ignore the rules or break the rules. The Western sense of entitlement is just as sickening perverse as the Chinese sense of entitlement, but for different things.
2. Now you’re just going off on a semi-racist/semi-xenophobic rant with little basis in reality. For example, the United States employs plenty of cheap, unskilled illegal labor. Did you forget about the millions of illegal Hispanic immigrants and migrant workers there? With regards to university spots, you’re forgetting that most Chinese students who go abroad to study end up staying abroad instead of returning home. They certainly make their contributions to their host societies and institutions simply by being there. More importantly, are you suggesting that qualified candidates to these institutions of learning should be rejected on the basis of their color or nationality?
3. China doesn’t “need” anything. It only desires…and those desires are always subject to being balanced by their other desires…or fears. Get used to it. What is this? Some 21st century version of the White Man’s Burden? China can learn much from the West, but they ultimately make the decision of how they’ll do that, not you. Damning their development to “stop dead” is categorically embarrassing of you.
4. Being annoyed with unstable and erratic visa policy changes or enforcement is a legitimate gripe, but please temper your subconscious resentment against the Chinese, refrain from mixing one issue with another, and attempt to be a rational human being.
Gaz: Ever had a friend from a third world country try to get a visa to the USA? You are wrong when you say, “the difference between most western countries visa rules and the Chinese ‘rules’ is that China doesn’t have and rules at all.” OK, the USA rule is that the interviewer makes the decision, but this decision is arbitrary. Of course, if they refuse the visa, they must give a written reason. That consists of a four check box boilerplate and they check a couple of the boxes at random.
gaz, beautifully written- if my language skills had not been ruined due to all the fake alcohol here that is exactly what I would have said
Came to your website while searching for info on expats experiencing problems “because of the Olympics.” I’ve been in China for 3 years, on a resident’s permit. I live in a small city in Shandong Province. I work at a school located at an airport. Last week, we (all the foreigners working in the school) were told we must stay away from the airport, because of the Olympics, us working at the airport presents a huge security risk. Then we were told that we must leave our little city immediately, and not come back until the Olympics are over. Now, this all seems a little ridiculous to me, and I feel that our school may not be telling the whole truth of why the local police suddenly want us to leave. Afterall, why would they send us from a small city that has nothing to do with the Olympics to Qingdao (our school headquarters)? Wouldn’t that be a bigger security risk?! Just wandering if anyone is also having these kinds of problems, or if it is just a local issue that probably has nothing to do with the Olympics, other than using them as an excuse to get rid of us.
Stumbled back to this post and forgot that I left a comment! I don’t know if anyone will read this, but I wanted to update and clarify my post. Now it is April 2009 and I can say that I now know that all of our police problems were due to my company neglecting to register our company in the right place, but this was only found out because of increased inspections due to the Olympics. We were indeed sent out of the country until October. On our return, everything was fine and back to normal. Our visas were never revoked or anything like that. It was just a weird time, because of increased security.
Thanks for the update Global Gal!
there is no body wants to China host Olympics again.The policy of the goverment of china about chinese visa lets foreigners think negative all everything about china anyway.
what about african people who are forced to leave china .
Before , the olympic game , my visa was expired , i went to hk and got 15days . the second time ,they gave me 7days that means i have to leave china .
i was just feel like crying because , my client transfered money to chinese suppliers and me i ‘was forced to leave .
I went back and got 1 month visa in my country then came back .
They gave me , after , my visa expired 15 days and the second time 7 days again.
And now i have to stay in Hongkong until the situation changes .
Why AFRICANS?
we , all hold a passport , and we have identity . why blame all africans ?
we are not here just to play . I have here for 7 years . i studied in china . i speak chinese very well and i ‘m now setting up a company in china .
i just think that chinese don’t like black people .
there is a Racism in china .
well , in this case , they should know that Africa is a huge economic partner . A lot of chineses move to Africa . Many companies are running by chineses in Africa .
why , our ambassy or our government don’t say anything ?
That is terrible and shame to china .
if we r not welcome , we just move back and then chineses stay in china and we stay in AFRICA .
HOPE SOMEBODY COULD EXPLAIN ME THIS PROBLEM.
because i’m really upset .
last time i went toi PSB and they officer just tell me ,u can not extend your visa here ,then i asked him why .He replied , u must leave china .
I feel the same frustation, I made it to come back, but my boyfriend still stuck on his country, the university doesnt want to return the adminission fee of 3.000 rmb, and he cant get a L visa, we have been trying many ways possible, but im getting frustated with this stupid way to rule the visas !anyone knows a solution??
hi
if i get a job in china then i have to clear medical and in my past life i was having infection of tb so what can i do ,it was infection not the deases as i have medical report with 2 different docotrs certificate so can i get the visa .
i have already spent more than 25000rmb , for the flight tick hk to my country . and then travelling from shenzhen to qingdao , shanghai to shenzhen and im still in hk waiting for the new regulation.
they can tell us the truth , if they dont need black people in china , we can go back to our countries . that is ok or find a new source of products suppliers .
mmmhh! hanks for the reading, delighted to hear that i thought someone in China did not like me, i have just returned last weekend after a short trip to Ireland. I hold 2 passports Ireland and UK, but whatever it has been made very difficult to obtain a visa, i have been teaching here in Guangzhou for 15 months, i returned home and the scholl never ceased to email for my return, but i now experience the visa problem i had to wit 4 days in Hong Kong and pay 1380 HKD FOR 2X30 days, on top of that ‘now the wopper’ i bought my apartment at Binjiang Donglu Hai Zhu Ban Dao, overlooking the Pearl river cost 2.4 million rmb, i have invested alot of money here in my adopted country which i love very much, the people hussel and bussel and misunderstanding i enjoy, just as Meg speak about her boyfriend i do everything by the book, not trouble no break the rule, in fact go out of my way to make sure i am up to date, the Oylimpics are long gone, China speak that i needs to learn the English language in all schools from next year, so then please give us the visa,s many of us enjoy our lives here. simply because we enjoy the country the culture and just maybe the way of life.
Wow! reading again some of the comments left here, i was brought up to understand that we are all he same, regardless color or creed, when i look at someone i se a person, not a color or disablement, racism is all over the world not just China and the visa issue effects all outsiders, not just black, and if some have lived and resided here for such a long time how can they speak China is just being racist. True we all know this when we come here that the cards will not be dealt in favour at sometime, which is a pity, many of us do enjoy life here, nd we must ask ourselves…WHY?. Also why does the price seem to be so very different from place to place.
Totally agree that the visa setup iun China is way off! Totally useless really. But i guess as in all things some people are luckier than others
This is an old post so im not sure why Google top rates this? Anyway, I need to comment because I am tired of hearing about this ongoing visa dilema. China did/does this to weed out all of the people taking advatange of the lax visa system. Legitimate visa’s were and always will be available to those who are here for specific, legitimate purposes. Unfortunately, many foreigners do not respect the laws of China and come here thinking they are “special” (or as the Chinese say “I am a STAR!”) for some reason. if you have lived here, you know exactly what I am talking about. Anyway, If you take a look at the entry/exit processes of other countries, I think you will find that China has been more than welcoming in terms of accomodating foreigners who want to visit, work or study. Even as a US citizen I get more hassle traveling back to the states then I have ever received here… IMHO China is spot on implementing these policies.
The point is that all countries require people to follow simple guidelines and laws and for those who do not, they are -and well should be) expelled.
What a sad story you were telling. Anyways, thanks a lot to your bf’s and your love for this nation. What I would say is that China is still a child on the way to true development. I am pretty sure the government would regret for what it has done.
I wish that you are doing good at your home country and will find a chance to come visit China again.
China welcomes you. Please come again.
I am A trustable and worthy South African. I have been all over China an always respected their rules! But since all this new visa rules China has actually made my life a living hell. It was never a problem to renew a visa and then suddenly at one time they said they can not help me and taht I have to renew in my own country. I did not see that comming and at that stage I did not have enough savings to travel home.
The Chinese goverment don’t want people in their country with expired visas but they make it impossible for them to leave China???!!!???!!!
What the hell?
china PSB is idiot people and china people is the most idiot and asshole in the whole entire world. maybe nobody knows, they never give chance to all people that need help, they just like to grab and cheat anyhow. first ? how are they doing to all africans doing good business in the perimeter of guangzhou , they like to put everybody in the sell and they let them jump to the highest building bcoz they are scared to put inside the dark and lonely jail while they families from their villages waiting for support bcoz some of them are suffering hunger ,,,what a shit? they like to extend paper, what china people did ? they high the price of extending papers maximum of 15000 thousand RMB .. what the hell is this? if u came to china they will not allow u to move freely, like africa people bringing business to them for china people continue theyre damn factories to produce, without those africa specially nigerians who are intelligent for business financing , what they will do they just produce small thing for occupying theyre people need, after they came to another country spreading they products that easy to spoiled, are they not coming to nigeria some of them no have paper but did africans disturb those people, if africa will fight for those chinese police and PSBs that chasing them away to the land of business(china) maybe many idiots(chinese) have died in the history bcoz africans are huge and chinese are dwarfs, weak and crazy people. i am not from africa if u may think i am from asia also, im a journalist newly come and observe what there people doing. if u ask me u can visit to my country and u will enjoy it….. people that is hungry can kill somebody. i dont know if u know what is mean? is those races that came china for oppurtunities but they are refusing bcoz chinese are selfish , this life that GOD gave is only one chance if u dont like somebody to do bad to you, dont do bad to them, is not good for somehow but GOd say if somebody throw u stone , gave them back a piece of bread, but u know human being are humans they are not perfect like what JESUS did just gave them chance coz LORD will not tired to forgive…….thanks for listening any comment or opinion for what ive said? i will gladly accept (vivi_min) in yahoo ok ? in the name of JESUS …AMEN
hi, i am in same trouble. china visa expired a year ago. some brokers asked for 20,000 rmb, to extend it. sky high priced. any advise?
urgent.
I had a problem getting back from Hong Kong to Shenzhen due to not understanding my visa was a one way and I was not allowed back to Shenzhen then to return to Beijing and complete my holiday. The immigration has no information stating that visas should be checked before going in to Hong Kong and had I known I wouldnt have gone. The saga to gain a new visa is outrageous and costly so anyone else be warned make sure you have good information before attempting the in and out trip from China to Hong Kong and back or you may find you have to stay overnight before you can get back to China. ps my wife alo had problems (same day) and she ic Chinese and even she couldnt get reliable info from Chinese staff